Fair statement?

[AlanLa]

Typical zazen just completed. The usual moments of thought and moments of clarity, moments of agitation with life these days and moments of peace when it all dropped away, all off and on, back and forth in waves upon waves until the bell. And so I ask if this is a fair statement:

Zazen is where we experience the relative AND the absolute, a mingling of the two (not two) in a boundless and perfect reality.

[Rich]

sounds fair. You could substitute life for zazen. Mingle the body and mind. Just a thought.

[AlanLa]

I like that thought, Rich. Lots of mingling during zazen, sort of a zen happy hour

[Yugen]

I think that is a fair statement.

"Lots of mingling during zazen, sort of a zen happy hour"

When the thoughts [whether of agitation or clarity] knock, let them in but don't buy them a drink!

Deep bows,
Yugen

[charst46]

Yugen,

Like that thought: let them in but don't buy them a drink...lot's of excess may happen if you do!

Gassho.

Charlie

[Hans]

Hello,

I especially like the "don't buy them a drink" part. Alhough in my experience the thoughts don't knock, they just enter as they please, zero courtesy or etiquette.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Jundo]

Typical zazen just completed. The usual moments of thought and moments of clarity, moments of agitation with life these days and moments of peace when it all dropped away, all off and on, back and forth in waves upon waves until the bell. And so I ask if this is a fair statement:

Zazen is where we experience the relative AND the absolute, a mingling of the two (not two) in a boundless and perfect reality.

Hi Alan,

It is important to not reduce things to a pat formula. Life is not a pat formula.

That being said, the "relative-absolute" has been perhaps THE formula that Zen and other Mahayana Buddhist Teachers have turned to for a couple of thousand years to convey what this Practice is on about. It is a useful way to point to something ...

http://villagezendo.org/journal/may_07/dharma_talk_may_07.html

However, it is very imperfect, only a useful description to a point, like saying that all the life and vibrancy of "New York" can be described with the words "big city" or "place in America". Only a useful description to a point.

There are certainly moments of Zazen when we feel tangled in thoughts, moments which feel like clarity ... moments that feel like agitation in life and mind, moments that feel like peace. The moments of untangled clarity, stillness and peace are vital to our Zazen, must not be skipped. The moments of tangle and noisy disturbance too.

If we -only- had the tangled thoughts and desire ... that is Delusion. Clarity clears away delusion. HOWEVER, the moments of seeming clarity and peace can also be a tempting honeytrap, and it is best to beware. Whole schools of Buddhism, and generations of Zen Practitioners have been trapped there. To wit ... we can fall into the chains of needing and running after feeling clear and peaceful ... thinking "that's it, that's the peaceful place" we want to be ... turning away from this tangled mind and agitated life (the days of sickness and health, the youth and old age, the times of peace and times of ugly war ... even the noisy husbands and kids and crows and helicopters that were the subject of that other thread).

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?9916-White-Noise&p=81381&viewfull=1#post81381

Don't "buy a drink" for any of that! The True Peace holds all peace and broken pieces, the Wholeness both the empty holes and filled holes, the wholes and partials.

So, try to drop all thought of "tangle vs. clarity" and "agitated vs. peaceful" and "relative and absolute" to pierce the Absolutely Clear and PeacePieceful from the first.

THE REAL TREASURE is to find the clarity AS the light and clear Illumination that always shines right through, that all shines AS even the very darkest and most tangled ... even when it cannot be clearly seen. So ...

Zazen is where we experience the relative AND the absolute, a mingling of the two (not two) in a boundless and perfect reality.

All I would say is "Boundless" even when/as/in feeling bound or feeling limited, Perfectly Just Reality whether and when we judge it perfect or imperfect. In other words, not a matter of feeling things are "boundless" and "peachy perfect" all the time.

Something like that.

Gassho, J

[Rich]

I like that thought, Rich. Lots of mingling during zazen, sort of a zen happy hour

Kind of like dating yourself. First you get to know him/her. Then understand. Then forget about it.

[disastermouse]

Zazen is where we experience the relative AND the absolute, a mingling of the two (not two) in a boundless and perfect reality.

Quick! One step behind that! From where did that thought rise?

[Mp]

Zazen is where we experience the relative AND the absolute, a mingling of the two (not two) in a boundless and perfect reality.

I too like this.

Gassho
Michael

[AlanLa]

Not only did I reduce zazen to a simple statement, with a prompt from Rich I reduced it to a phrase: "zen happy hour." Since I am on such a reductionist roll, let me reduce Jundo's looong post responding to my original question of regarding to the fairness of my statement to this: "Yes, but."

Seriously, reductionism has it's place. We find it useful, especially when we get so burdened down with words, to break it down to as few essential words as we can. It can, and does, bring new understanding to do this. But, as Jundo points out, it also has its pitfalls. We definitely lose something along the reductionist way.

[disastermouse]

Not only did I reduce zazen to a simple statement, with a prompt from Rich I reduced it to a phrase: "zen happy hour." Since I am on such a reductionist roll, let me reduce Jundo's looong post responding to my original question of regarding to the fairness of my statement to this: "Yes, but."

Seriously, reductionism has it's place. We find it useful, especially when we get so burdened down with words, to break it down to as few essential words as we can. It can, and does, bring new understanding to do this. But, as Jundo points out, it also has its pitfalls. We definitely lose something along the reductionist way.

A forest of words and ideas,
Full grown, lush, beautiful,
Complex,

A clearcut with stragglers,
Stark, clean, and open,
Simple.

[Taigu]

Great take, thank you Disastermouse.

gassssssssssssssssssssssssssho !




T.

[Jinyo]

Thank you Chet




Willow