Self-moralizing in Zen

[Jinyo]

Yes Willow, there is clearly an overlap. We should ask my brother Kyrillos, Chritian monk, Buddhist priest and Hermit, he is a living evidence of this oneness. Yes, Kannon and Mary are just one. Yes, doing good is important in both traditions. My rambling was about this: in Christianity heaven has been given and then taken away by the giver as a punishment for this original sin in the Garden, in Buddhism, Buddha nature pervades the whole universe and cannot be taken away. It can be ignored, not expressed, and that is the extent of our responsability, it is up to us to express it. In Christianity the Father-Son-Spirit has to be reached, prayed to, in our tradition Buddha and Buddha nature are identical and exist here and now, there are you-me-others. Something like that. In essence both are one and the same, in activity and implications, kind of different. Two flavours for one reality. I happen to prefer the Buddha nature one, or should I say it in a different way, I see truth in it. The other path as I experienced, was painful and twisted, which does not mean it is always so, quite the opposite actually. Many Japanese Buddhists would tell you how twisted the Buddhist religion is in Japan, many Christians would tell you how liberating is their path and faith.

gassho

Taigu

Thank you Taigu - I also prefer the Buddha nature route coming from a strange mix of Catholic/Methodist childhood - which had some complicated up and downs.

However - as you say - all respect to what suits the individual, and as theology is now more open and hermenuetical in its endeavors there are many interpretations (even of the story of original sin) to choose from.

I have just finished reading Uchiyama's 'Opening the Hand of Thought' and was struck by his comparing (and likening) egocentric thought to 'original sin' (pg 104). If we follow this analogy through it is as though Zazen is the state of grace that releases us from ego attachment.

I have many (contradictory!) thoughts on this but don't want to make this thread too long.

Briefly - I feel we use the term ego too much - it is just a topographical device dreamed up by Freud to provide a pseudo-scientific structure of the mind. I'm not sure what we use in its place, but it can become a weapon of self-flagellation, labelled as bad, bad, bad. The same has happened with the term narcissitic.

I think - what I'm trying to say - very clumsily - is in this area of 'shame' - let's not replace one tyranny (the concept of original sin) with another (ego attachment).

Does that make sense

Thanks to all for the many interesting/thoughtful posts in this thread

Gassho

Willow

[AlanLa]

The phrase "You are perfect as you are, but you could use a little improvement" has a couple of slippery slopes from my experience. "You could use a little improvement" has the slippery slope of moralizing, which is where I was, where I think I am coming out of. it can turn into "You need to be better, better, better," which can easily turn into "You are bad, bad, bad" if not careful. On the other hand, "You are perfect as you are" can lead to the slippery slope of egotism, the feeling it doesn't matter what I do, which is where I need to be careful not to go because I can feel the pull of it already. The balance on that comma between the two phrases can be a bit tricky. To go back to Yugen's first reply, I can see how it is the balance between vow and repentance.

I'm only proposing curiosity in the face of suffering - specifically in cases like Alan presents - because it's the only response that isn't based in greed, repulsion, or ignorance. It also brings into question whether our guilt is even real. One has to ask oneself, "Do I even really believe this, or do I simply think I'm supposed to believe this?" .... I'm suggesting that when suffering arrises, we should look to its true causes and not use the precepts in such a way that they shut down the inquiry before it begins.

Thanks for this, Chet. And you and Taigu are acting like a couple of playful little puppies, which is a bit weird given your history, but very nice to see.

[Emmet]

Yes; the vast majority of "the crap heap" is indeed self-imposed. I came to be interested in Buddhism when I realized that I no longer wanted to suffer; I came to want to be Buddhist when I realized that I no longer wanted to be the cause of suffering in others. I came to realize that this is a false dichotomy; the two are actually one, and quite inseparable. Speaking for myself, I don't see the Precepts as Abrahamaic "Thou Shalt Not" commandments, but as a guide; a reminder of how a Bodhisattva walks among other beings in a chaotic world. I do this or don't do that as a conscious choice to attempt to minimize or mitigate harm to myself and others, which can be a challenge in a society that irrationally views everything from getting to the next stop light to international relations as an all-out winner-take-all, gladiatorial competition starkly divided between winners and losers.

I make many different things. Sometimes, I can execute what I have conceptualized in my head precisely as I had imagined it, and there is some satisfaction in that (Yeah; but the dynamic between attachment to outcomes and motivation is a tangent for another time). More often than not though, things don't go exactly as I had planned; adaptations and compromises have to be made, with results which don't quite meet my intentions. I may not have been as skillful as I had hoped in my choice and utilization of tools and materials, or my understanding of the forces and stresses involved. I find that this is how my life works. In my experience, self-condemnation for being "bad" or a "failure" has not proven to be particularly helpful. Rather, seeing my efforts as being more or less skillful seems to be a more useful way of looking at things. For me; this is life as a practice; a learning experience. I've heard that there's no such thing as a failed scientific experiment (as long as nothing catches fire, explodes, or kills anybody. Fortunately, my mistakes are generally much more benign; myself and everyone involved is still breathing, with 10 fingers and 10 toes. Sometimes I need to remind myself of that to maintain some sense of perspective). Yes; I deeply regret incidents where my less-than-skillful interactions with others bring them suffering, and I try to learn from such episodes with the sincere intent to be more skillful next time....but I try to keep the lesson to carry with me, and drop the regret by the side of the road. I have found that a regular practice of Fusatsu is helpful in this regard. All conditioned things involve chaos. Strive on with diligence.

"Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could. Some blunders and absurdities no doubt crept in; forget them as soon as you can. Tomorrow is a new day; begin it well and serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense."
Ralph Waldo Emerson

[RichardH]

Hey Kojip,

I'm not advocating platitudes in place of compassionate action. The brute facts of the matter are that, other than matters of safety, hunger, and true deprivation, I don't see how the manipulation of conditions (so few of which are under our control) or adherence to philosophy will help.

I'm only proposing curiosity in the face of suffering - specifically in cases like Alan presents - because it's the only response that isn't based in greed, repulsion, or ignorance. It also brings into question whether our guilt is even real. One has to ask oneself, "Do I even really believe this, or do I simply think I'm supposed to believe this?"

I'm not saying, "You don't exist, so your suffering doesn't exist." I'm suggesting that when suffering arrises, we should look to its true causes and not use the precepts in such a way that they shut down the inquiry before it begins. Instead of mimicking the virtuous actions expounded in the dharma (which we can never do anyway as long as we cling to erroneous concepts of self), would it not be better to make real the awakened view through Right Contemplation and Right View?

Chet

Hi Chet... I wandered off topic back there into general world view. But, sure I agree, and was not criticizing, just reading and responding.... Ending being trapped in a view, being born into a world (so to speak)... a world of crystalized thought, starts with curiosity, and "Right view", but then gives-way to practice and "no view". That "No View" is unbound. No amount of Right View will unbind... only time on the cushion. Furthermore, it ain't a one time thing... realizing ineffable liberation on the cushion leavens into the realization that delusion runs deep, and practice/liberation, responsibility, runs just as deep, and is ongoing. At least that is my stubborn, unteachable, fumbling, experience.

Gassho,kojip

[Taigu]

Willow,

Of course it makes sense..This ego thing is so much misunderstood. And indeed many people swap a principle of self criticism for another one.
The ego is about the illusion of an ego. Beccause there is no ego. That's the biggest illusion of all, that voice that says: I want, I crave, I...
So to get rid of something that isn t here and now?
Zazen cuts the chase. Straight into the open, opening the open. Nobody to be seen and yet.

I am very impressed by your sweet and deep understanding of the path. It seems that all these years come to a fruitful bloom.
You have nothing to be ashamed of, nothing to wabble about.
Of course, like everybody else, bad health can be scary at times.
Go with the flow.
Trust Willow without Willow. The face and the name given before your parents were born.
It is available right now, in joy and sorrow, it is YOU.

gassho


Taigu

[Rich]

Willow,

That's the biggest illusion of all, that voice that says: I want, I crave, I...
So to get rid of something that isn t here and now?
Zazen cuts the chase. Straight into the open, opening the open. Nobody to be seen and yet.


gassho


Taigu

Thanks. Can never hear this too much.

[Jinyo]

Taigu



Willow

[AlanLa]

Update: I clearly heard that little voice in my head last night say "bad" when the old habit returned. But I paid it no heed; I gave it no power. I was aware of it, clearly, and that's all. It was just another thought, and then I moved on as best I could, which today feels considerably better than yesterday and before. It has finally occurred to me that the real "bad habit" I referred to at the beginning of this thread was my labeling myself as bad.

[Yugen]

Alan,
A deep bow of gratitude for your teaching.

Gassho
Yugen

[Khalil Bodhi]

Update: I clearly heard that little voice in my head last night say "bad" when the old habit returned. But I paid it no heed; I gave it no power. I was aware of it, clearly, and that's all. It was just another thought, and then I moved on as best I could, which today feels considerably better than yesterday and before. It has finally occurred to me that the real "bad habit" I referred to at the beginning of this thread was my labeling myself as bad.

[charst46]

If I can say something here. I was cleaning the press pot of coffee grounds. The pot had stood for a couple of days as I had been a little lazy about cleaning it. I took it apart and noticed there was some residue covering the various parts after I had rinsed it out. I wiped away the residue. This thread came to mind. I remembered the lines:

Shen Xui wrote on the wall:


The body is a Bodhi tree,
The mind a standing mirror bright.
At all times polish it diligently,
And let no dust alight.


Hui Neng responded:


Bodhi is fundamentally without any tree;
The bright mirror is also not a stand.
Fundamentally there is not a single thing —
Where could any dust be attracted?


As I was cleaning the pot I understood that the residue was not 'dirty', only my mind would add that 'attribute'. Nor was the pot 'clean' because all the residue was gone. The pot is just the pot, the grounds and residue just the grounds and residue (although the earth worms might take exception to that as they seem to be rather deeply attached to them). I thought about what Alan wrote about self-moralizing and thought "simply the residue, it is just residue, nothing more nothing less; it is the pot, just the pot, nothing more and nothing less." For myself I understood that self-moralizing is another form of attachment that 'I' use to give myself a sense of permanence, an enduring self separate from the world. A separate self that has the responsibility for the entire world and my failing to help the world be a better place is a 'stain', a residue that covers that pure self underneath...

Sorry if I rambled.

Alan,

Gassho for the lesson.

Charlie

[Jundo]

Hi,

I am looking at some books to use this time for our annual Jukai (Undertaking the Precepts) time of reflection on the Precepts, and one of the books I am considering is "Being Upright" by Reb Anderson Roshi of San Francisco Zen Center. One short chapter of the book includes discussion of the Verse of Atonement (our version at Treeleaf begins "All harmful acts, words and thoughts, ever committed by me since of old ...) in which he says ...

The realization of the full, liberating function of formal confession must entail elements of regret and remorse.

I tend to be with Reb on this, and do not see any problem ... in fact, I feel it is a healthy thing ... to feel regret, remorse and a measure of self-chastisement (as opposed to self-disgust or loathing, as Reb contrasts) when we do wrong. What is so wrong with feeling bad for our bad and harmful actions? We don't have to beat and whip ourselves to extreme, but some balance of moderate regret and remorse seems fine, healthy ... even necessary to human morality. In Zen, we sometimes say that we don't call anyone (even ourselves) "bad people", but we do recognize that we sometimes commit bad acts through greed, anger and ignorance ... and I think we should not feel so good about doing so, and should feel the weight of our bad actions.

But, as I said, I think we need to "atone" and "at one", meaning that we can also toss our past bad acts into the cleansing wash of emptiness. No past acts to regret ... in fact, no past acts. Moderate regret and no regret ... at once, as one.

Please read the short chapter (5 Confession) and see how you feel.

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=EeXSq0GSwekC&pg=PA28&hl=ja&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

The jury is still out on the book, by the way.

Gassho, Jundo

[disastermouse]

Hi,

I am looking at some books to use this time for our annual Jukai (Undertaking the Precepts) time of reflection on the Precepts, and one of the books I am considering is "Being Upright" by Reb Anderson Roshi of San Francisco Zen Center. One short chapter of the book includes discussion of the Verse of Atonement (our version at Treeleaf begins "All harmful acts, words and thoughts, ever committed by me since of old ...) in which he says ...

The realization of the full, liberating function of formal confession must entail elements of regret and remorse.

I tend to be with Reb on this, and do not see any problem ... in fact, I feel it is a healthy thing ... to feel regret, remorse and a measure of self-chastisement (as opposed to self-disgust or loathing, as Reb contrasts) when we do wrong. What is so wrong with feeling bad for our bad and harmful actions? We don't have to beat and whip ourselves to extreme, but some balance of moderate regret and remorse seems fine, healthy ... even necessary to human morality. In Zen, we sometimes say that we don't call anyone (even ourselves) "bad people", but we do recognize that we sometimes commit bad acts through greed, anger and ignorance ... and I think we should not feel so good about doing so, and should feel the weight of our bad actions.

But, as I said, I think we need to "atone" and "at one", meaning that we can also toss our past bad acts into the cleansing wash of emptiness. No past acts to regret ... in fact, no past acts. Moderate regret and no regret ... at once, as one.

Please read the short chapter (5 Confession) and see how you feel.

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=EeXSq0GSwekC&pg=PA28&hl=ja&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

The jury is still out on the book, by the way.

Gassho, Jundo

I wanted to ask some questions about this because I genuinely am of mixed feelings about the very subject of morality - mostly in its functionality, not its propriety. I also don't think it works as a matter of effort or mimicry. Regret only truly works (in my experience) if it brings one to examine the cause of the behavior and address THAT. In my case, it typically has something to do with an error in thinking or clinging to a belief.

Gassho

Chet

[Mp]

Thank you everybody for your thoughts on this topic ... there is lots to think about.

Gassho,
Michael

[RichardH]

Hi,

I am looking at some books to use this time for our annual Jukai (Undertaking the Precepts) time of reflection on the Precepts, and one of the books I am considering is "Being Upright" by Reb Anderson Roshi of San Francisco Zen Center. One short chapter of the book includes discussion of the Verse of Atonement (our version at Treeleaf begins "All harmful acts, words and thoughts, ever committed by me since of old ...) in which he says ...

The realization of the full, liberating function of formal confession must entail elements of regret and remorse.

I tend to be with Reb on this, and do not see any problem ... in fact, I feel it is a healthy thing ... to feel regret, remorse and a measure of self-chastisement (as opposed to self-disgust or loathing, as Reb contrasts) when we do wrong. What is so wrong with feeling bad for our bad and harmful actions? We don't have to beat and whip ourselves to extreme, but some balance of moderate regret and remorse seems fine, healthy ... even necessary to human morality. In Zen, we sometimes say that we don't call anyone (even ourselves) "bad people", but we do recognize that we sometimes commit bad acts through greed, anger and ignorance ... and I think we should not feel so good about doing so, and should feel the weight of our bad actions.

But, as I said, I think we need to "atone" and "at one", meaning that we can also toss our past bad acts into the cleansing wash of emptiness. No past acts to regret ... in fact, no past acts. Moderate regret and no regret ... at once, as one.

Please read the short chapter (5 Confession) and see how you feel.

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=EeXSq0GSwekC&pg=PA28&hl=ja&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

The jury is still out on the book, by the way.

Gassho, Jundo

Thank you, good reading... There is , in my experience, always an self-centered quality to unwholesome action... unwholesome action comes from the sense of being an actor, being caught up in "me and my life". Formal confession brings this self-ing into awareness by diminishing "me"... which is uncomfortable, corrective, and "I" don't like it. Formless confession is dropping and forgetting... and that is a miracle of Zazen ... every day is a new day.

So, stainless yet falling down over and over.... Already perfect(ly imperfect), yet becoming a more wholesome person.
At least this is my take on it.. There were unwholesome things I would do years ago that would not even arise now, yet there is still an endless supply of unwholesome habit energy to work with.

Gassho, kojip