Zazen only a drop in the bucket?

[disastermouse]

Despite its ubiquity, caffeine is a serious, powerful drug. You will definitely want to wean yourself off. Believe it or not, I actually sought the help of a substance abuse counselor to help me detox. Even though I really wanted to quit I could not--definitely an addiction! These days, even a cup of green tea sends me reeling. So I just avoid the stuff altogether.

Matt - Did you taper down? You CAN quit coffee cold turkey much more easily than, say, cigarettes - but tapering down also helps. I can't even taper down with cigarettes - I had to start taking Chantix.

Chet

[Kaishin]

Matt - Did you taper down?

I tapered, but I was also drinking extreme amounts of caffeine. On the order of two pots of strong Starbucks brew a day. Took me about a month.

[Rich]

Yea sure coffe can be addictive but one cup in the morning is right for me. A cup before sports is great to. Anything can be addictive, even this forum.

Noticing anxiety can be a good thing. It is part of you.

[Heisoku]

It's taken a long time for me to becalm my mind and much of what has been said I have done (caffeine, late night working etc) but it has also much to do with bringing externals into balance ie, job, study, career path, relationships, finances etc... so much that we wish to balance right now but have to be patient about and be trusting that things will work out the right way for us even if it doesn't feel like it at the time. This is where a kind of faith in zazen can help diminish some of the worrying bit by bit. I will never forget one time when the chatter and worry suddenly stopped and I quite clearly heard Bob Marley singing "Everything gonna be alright, everything gonna be alright"... It just seemed to reflect that need to have this kind of faith in the practice. I haven't heard it since, but I hum it occasionally when needed... but not when sitting!!

[chatteringmonkeys]

Hi Julia,
I'm experiencing this right now, some times more than others. I'm a total beginner for all intents and purposes, and I think it's normal and it's probably harder for people like us who naturally have a running commentary/narration in our heads to learn to quieten the mind. This is the inspiration for my screen name "chatteringmonkeys" after all :-) I don't really have anything to add, other than that I have the same thing going on and it can be a little frustrating to have to keep reminding myself to stop narrating/thinking about things and try to calmly acknowledge it and dismiss the thoughts, and then try not to get frustrated at myself

I'm hoping that this will eventually decrease and then disappear while sitting as my practice grows and develops. I guess it's easier for some and more difficult for others but for me, it helps to try to remember not to get discouraged and that "this too shall pass" (to borrow from another tradition).

Darrell

[chatteringmonkeys]

Thus have I heard; A jug fills drop by drop.

"When you are practicing zazen, do not try to stop your thinking. Let it stop by itself. If something comes into your mind, let it come in, and let it go out. It will not stay long. When you try to stop your thinking, it means you are bothered by it. Do not be bothered by anything. It appears as if something comes from outside your mind, but actually it is only the waves of your mind, and if you are not bothered by the waves, gradually they will become calmer and calmer."
Shunryu Suzuki Roshi

I love this quote, thank you for this, Piobair.

Gassho,
Darrell

[Jundo]

Hi Julia,
I'm experiencing this right now, some times more than others. I'm a total beginner for all intents and purposes, and I think it's normal and it's probably harder for people like us who naturally have a running commentary/narration in our heads to learn to quieten the mind. This is the inspiration for my screen name "chatteringmonkeys" after all :-) I don't really have anything to add, other than that I have the same thing going on and it can be a little frustrating to have to keep reminding myself to stop narrating/thinking about things and try to calmly acknowledge it and dismiss the thoughts, and then try not to get frustrated at myself

I'm hoping that this will eventually decrease and then disappear while sitting as my practice grows and develops. I guess it's easier for some and more difficult for others but for me, it helps to try to remember not to get discouraged and that "this too shall pass" (to borrow from another tradition).

Darrell

Hi Darrell,

If you are really really having a difficult time to allow some of the ripples and storm clouds of the mind to settle, it is fine to count or follow the breath for a time. Breath at your natural pace, and count "1" "2" etc. each time you reach the top of the breath. When coming to 10, return to 1 (not so easy to do, by the way). Also, place the mind at the tip of the nose and be lightly aware of the air entering and leaving there. If you just maintain the latter awareness without the counting, that is to "follow" the breath.

Some teachers have people engage in such practice for the long term, but here I recommend folks only to do so when they really really cannot settle the chaotic mind a bit. As soon as they can, and the ripples and storms dissipate a bit, return to open, spacious awareness ... focused on everything and nothing in particular ... allowing thoughts to come and go without grabbing on, clutching them, or stirring them up.

Gassho, J

[chatteringmonkeys]

Hi Jundo,
thank you for this advice! I have been trying to count the breath but then I get caught up in this whole "gotta make it to 10" thing that distracts me, so lately I've just been thinking "inhale" upon inhaling and "exhale" when exhaling. And just dismissing any thoughts that come up. Does that sound like a good practice?

I really like what you said about placing the mind at the tip of the nose and focusing on the air entering and leaving, I'll try that the next time I sit.

Deep Gasssho for that valuable advice,
D-

[Jundo]

Hi Jundo,
thank you for this advice! I have been trying to count the breath but then I get caught up in this whole "gotta make it to 10" thing that distracts me, so lately I've just been thinking "inhale" upon inhaling and "exhale" when exhaling. And just dismissing any thoughts that come up. Does that sound like a good practice?

I really like what you said about placing the mind at the tip of the nose and focusing on the air entering and leaving, I'll try that the next time I sit.

Deep Gasssho for that valuable advice,
D-

Hi,

Yes, that is fine ... and sometime during the sitting, after some minutes, see if you can transition into sitting with "open spacious awareness". Maybe move back and forth for some time.

Also begin to get a sense for the old Zen teaching that "in" and "out", "inside" and "outside" are but divisions of mind ... Shunryu Suzuki Roshi once said this about the breath …

If you think, “I breathe,” the “I” is extra. There is no you to say “I.” What we call “I” is just a swinging door which moves when we inhale and when we exhale. It just moves; that is all. When your mind is pure and calm enough to follow this movement, there is nothing: no “I,” no world, no mind nor body: just a swinging door.

Here is a bit more on breathing from our Zazen for Beginners (We're all always beginners) series ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7695-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%28Part-XI%29

Gassho, Jundo

[Dojin]

Hey Julia.
this discussion gave me and idea for a new thread.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?9809-The-hour-of-sitting&p=79194#post79194

basically i noticed that the hour/part in the day you sit has a big impact on the sitting itself. so maybe that has something to do with your chatter... i talk about it in more length in the post i wrote.

sorry for hijacking this thread in a different direction

Gassho, Dojin.

[murasaki]

Heh, Dojin -- I discovered that other thread first and replied to it before seeing your connecting it in this one So I'll retro-reply here and hopefully not repeat too much.

I do have to sit earlier, because I get so sleepy that I give up entirely, which really makes me mad at myself even though that's not good to do.

However the chatter is all the time, not just during sitting. So I was trying to reduce it any amount for any time of the day...it's overwhelming.

Since I have only just restarted my efforts to sit regularly, I wondered if I just need to be in the habit of it for longer to feel a reduction in the chatter. But it seems there are other things going on that add to it too. A lot of people gave me some really good advice in this thread that I am still digesting.

That having been said, I have only done morning sits a few times now, and I noticed that I tend to feel better afterwards. The chatter doesn't really feel greatly reduced or anything, but maybe that morning sit is the boost I need to address the problem...

Gassho,
Julia

[chatteringmonkeys]

Hi,

Yes, that is fine ... and sometime during the sitting, after some minutes, see if you can transition into sitting with "open spacious awareness". Maybe move back and forth for some time.

Also begin to get a sense for the old Zen teaching that "in" and "out", "inside" and "outside" are but divisions of mind ... Shunryu Suzuki Roshi once said this about the breath …



Here is a bit more on breathing from our Zazen for Beginners (We're all always beginners) series ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7695-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%28Part-XI%29

Gassho, Jundo

Thank you. If I could "like" this posting, I would LOL

Gassho,
D-

[chatteringmonkeys]

One other thing that *might* help (and I realize it's not the kosher, traditional way so take it with a giant grain of salt from this newbie ) is (in addition to respecting the tradition and doing shikantaza facing the wall), add a short period of doing it outside.

I find, for me, I like to have a little white noise and for whatever reason, I like to "just sit" looking at water, whether it's a small pond or a big body of water. Today, I did 20 minutes sitting on a big rock at the lakeshore right at the water's edge and it was very helpful to quieten my mind chatter but without fixating on any particular thing (sort of seeing past the water, birds, etc.). Again, this isn't to say that you/I should not continue practicing the traditional method, facing the wall, just that it might be a little extra practice if you can (a small raft) as an exercise to help quieten that chatter. I think it's the same reason why I need an air purifier on at night so I can sleep, the silence is deafening and for whatever reason, the noise silences my internal dialogue. (I tend to narrate everything I do, which was worse when I lived on my own because I used to talk to myself all the time LOL Now I realize that my mother does it and it drives me crazy, so I must have picked it up from her )

That said, I don't think this is a long-term thing and it's something that I need to work through so that I can be okay with pure silence, pure nothingness sitting facing the wall. Perhaps some more experienced people can comment. I'm so glad you brought this topic up!

D-

[Jundo]

One other thing that *might* help (and I realize it's not the kosher, traditional way so take it with a giant grain of salt from this newbie ) is (in addition to respecting the tradition and doing shikantaza facing the wall), add a short period of doing it outside.

I find, for me, I like to have a little white noise and for whatever reason, I like to "just sit" looking at water, whether it's a small pond or a big body of water. Today, I did 20 minutes sitting on a big rock at the lakeshore right at the water's edge and it was very helpful to quieten my mind chatter but without fixating on any particular thing (sort of seeing past the water, birds, etc.). Again, this isn't to say that you/I should not continue practicing the traditional method, facing the wall, just that it might be a little extra practice if you can (a small raft) as an exercise to help quieten that chatter. I think it's the same reason why I need an air purifier on at night so I can sleep, the silence is deafening and for whatever reason, the noise silences my internal dialogue. (I tend to narrate everything I do, which was worse when I lived on my own because I used to talk to myself all the time LOL Now I realize that my mother does it and it drives me crazy, so I must have picked it up from her )

That said, I don't think this is a long-term thing and it's something that I need to work through so that I can be okay with pure silence, pure nothingness sitting facing the wall. Perhaps some more experienced people can comment. I'm so glad you brought this topic up!

D-

Hi D,

That is fine and good sitting too, and I like to sit such places very much. Next week, I am going for another hike on Tsukuba mountain, and there is a rock at the top where I always love to sit on a Spring or Summer day.

Just don't become dependent on "needing" to sit in a tranquil, postcard place with the birds chirping.

Don't become dependent on facing the wall either, or any place. We usually sit, for example, in a still and quiet room facing the wall (or facing in ... that is also a matter of personal inclination) ... because such places do help the mind become still and quiet. However, the truly still and quiet is also not a matter of where or when ...

(Gee, one more "We're All Beginners" !! )

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7684-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%28Part-XXIII%29

Gassho, J

[murasaki]

I was actually advised before that kinhin could be a sort of "preparation" for zazen because the moving makes things easier to focus on...not that that's a real substitute but just to help settle down. I forgot about that until just this moment

I like white noise too, and sitting in nature. Unfortunately with 110+ degree heat during the day, and scorpions creeping about at night, outside is not so doable here

What I did yesterday, because someone was watching TV and another body was playing a noisy video game, was to put in my earbuds so I would tune things out and hear the Insight Timer chime go off. As it turns out, the sound of your breathing is magnified and it gives you the sensation of being underwater. I had also tried earplugs for a time when I had noise that bothered me at night, and I fell asleep with my breathing sound, which is rather soothing.

Maybe that's not "kosher" either, but I think of these things in terms of temporary crutches or for when things get to be too much and you need some sort of workaround.

Gassho
Julia