Zazen only a drop in the bucket?

[Rich]

Yes, eat more broccoli. No, have not resolved that yet. Great that you are sitting regularly. Dogen said that practice. And realization are one. Have you noticed that some thinking and feeling is more difficult to let go of than other?

[Jundo]

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this one...

I am sitting more regularly (people who've heard me say that 30 times please ignore that statement), and learning to drop thoughts in a way I thought was good enough, but I am really having lots of chatter going on and on in my head. Not the schizophrenic type of chatter, but a constant stream of everyday nonsense: Going over and over again in my mind what I said in answer to a question someone asked me. What to say if Mom asks me about such and such. Conversations I had with people both good and bad. Talking to myself about plans for the near future and blah blah blah...the list goes on.

It seems like it's gone so far beyond my control. I find myself in some sort of inner rap session every moment I'm not in a meeting or otherwise engaged with other human beings (and even then it can happen).

I don't want to go to my med provider and ask for some pill for it that will make me stoopid (sic). That won't help anything. But I don't know if it's physiological, or if I just let myself do too much of what I seem to always have done naturally, and now I'm stuck in a cycle.

Should I be sitting several times a day? Eating more broccoli? Has anyone been through this, and how did you resolve it?

Gassho,
Julia

Hi Julia,

Yes, Zazen does not end on the cushion.

As the several wise folks on this thread have said, yes, all through one's day practice letting thoughts go that trap you, don't get caught in the drama, see through the parade of constant throught and emotions into the stillness and silence also there.

To have a stream of thoughts and problems in life is just life. To also learn to see through them to an allowing clarity and illumination at the same time, and not be trapped by them as we otherwise would be, is our Practice on and off the cushion.

So many wise & compassionate folks in this Sangha and in this thread!

Gassho, Jundo

[murasaki]

Kyonin,
That's great that you can sit for up to 40 minutes. I am still working up to that. It seems like 20 minutes is my maximum before my head explodes.

I will try to sit more than once per day. As for exercising, I am still trying to work that out around my wrist injury (and possible surgery).

I remember being better about dropping thoughts in the past. It seems like I'm not as good at it now, or there are more thoughts to drop. I get caught up very easily in the mind-theatre.

It's inspiring for me to see that you overcame your mind's monkey jumping -- makes it feel more doable for me.

Gassho,
Julia

[murasaki]

Dosho,
The thoughts are traps, you are right, and I seem to be falling into them more than before lately. But I will stop judging them, I guess zazen with a flood of thoughts and some periods of being caught up is still zazen, yes?
gassho
Julia

[murasaki]

Shohei,
Yes, I could live with less caffeine in my life most likely.

Maybe that's the problem, I noticed "too many thoughts" and my attachment to that idea kept them coming. It's a good point. It seems that trying to find an explantion for their being more made them increase, a viscious cycle...
Gassho,
Julia

[murasaki]

Andy,
That used to work so well for me, but somehow even that fell away and I was sucked into the mind-drama over and over...frustrating! I think it was Kaishin that pointed out I'm going through a lot, so perhaps it's a temporary phase, and breath counting will once again be a good starting point.
Gassho,
Julia

[murasaki]

Myozan and Risho,
Yes, it's time I chatted with Jundo, I have talked to Taigu (a while back) but never to Jundo, it's about time!

Risho, "mock arguments" sums it up perfectly! I am always anticipating near-future confrontations both mild and intense, I am so much on the defensive and feeling like I can't live in the moment, just plan things so people don't "get a jump" on me. I guess I've experienced that too much lately so 've come to expect it as a defense mechanism, but it's not a very good one, is it?

Gassho,
Julia

[murasaki]

Shujin,
I actually have ADD, and I thought that had something to do with it but I didn't want to just slap a label on it without discussing.
I hope I find the acceptance for myself as you have for yourself, thank you for disclosure, I know some people don't want to talk about their disorders that much.
Gassho,
Julia

[murasaki]

Kaishin, I will get the book soon. The caffeine is a tough one, I wonder if it would do to cut back gradually so I'm not knocked out of commission for an entire two weeks.

Willow, the fact that you have observed and reflected on my recent condition and circumstances shows your great caring -- gassho. And it's a good point, that I didn't consider my current context. I should give it time also, and not just patience for the moment.

Kyonin, remember when we talked about this before? You'd think I would be better, but not by much! It's hard to resist the impulse to "keep up with what's going on" even though I can do very little about it and it stresses and aggravates me. Leo Balbuta has written a lot of things about that but it is a process and sometimes it's a process you have to do over again!

Lipor, it's not bad wording (and I read Spanish if you want to write, but what actually comes out of my mouth is a language I call "Franspanol" because my French has a horrifying influence on my spoken Spanish! You and Kyonin would completely crack up at me.) I am glad I am not a rock, and you make a good point about the "zazen line", I never heard it described like that but now I feel more empowered.

Gassho,
Julia

[murasaki]

I'm so confused by the new system that I'm posting replies all over the place, I'm sorry!
Chet, the first thing that came to mind was that my ADD was probably acting up. My meds are more focused on anxiety reduction and have found a workable dose/combination that I didn't want to have to mess around with. It would make sense for chatter to increase with sitting because of greater awareness, but I'm definitely feeling a quantifiable increase in thougts.s.

Dojin, it was a good rambling I didn't think of it in terms of layers, that kind of makes sense though I will hae to keep expeeriencing to really get it. Letting the thoughts "run their natural course" sounds like the acceptance others mentioned, which I have not been doing at all, I will focus on this (or not-focus, you know what I mean) next time.

Ekai, I'm glad I identified my mental chatter/drama even though at the same time I was caught up in it. Maybe my beginner's practice is what helped with that.

Rich, I sure do notice how certain thoughts attach to me as strongly as I attach to them, and it's disturbing but necessary to realise. Now, if only I could get my boyfriend to eat broccoli with me, he hates it more than anything.

Jundo, a parade it is indeed but I guess I can be happy that all parades end at some point!

Gassho,
Julia

[Nenka]

I have read that it takes about five minutes of sitting for your mind to start calming down . . . so sometimes when I first sit down, I just let it do what it wants. After a few minutes, I think, well, are you done now? And I'm usually able to relax a bit and be quieter than if I had just immediately tried to shut my mind up.

Gassho

Jen

[Emmet]

Zazen only a drop in the bucket?

Thus have I heard; A jug fills drop by drop.

"When you are practicing zazen, do not try to stop your thinking. Let it stop by itself. If something comes into your mind, let it come in, and let it go out. It will not stay long. When you try to stop your thinking, it means you are bothered by it. Do not be bothered by anything. It appears as if something comes from outside your mind, but actually it is only the waves of your mind, and if you are not bothered by the waves, gradually they will become calmer and calmer."
Shunryu Suzuki Roshi

[Khalil Bodhi]

Julia,

I hope you don't mind my two cents. I used to have a horrible problem with sleepiness and then, after about 5 years of it there was a switch and now I find myself sitting in the midst of a tempest of thoughts whenever I sit. It generally takes about 15 minutes for the mind to quieten for me so I definitely recommend patiently sitting with whatever comes up and watching it rise nd fall of its own accord. It may be nice to take one day a week to abstain from entertainments and focus solely on the Dharma. In the other tradition that also informs my practice is the observance of the uposatha (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/d.../uposatha.html) which is day where people take an additional set of three renunciant precepts that help to simplify one's day and lead to a quieter mind. The Lord Buddha said that patience is the highest virtue and I think that it's always called for regardless of the situation. May you find true and lasting happiness in this lifetime. Mettaya.

Gassho,

Mike

[Kaishin]

Kaishin, I will get the book soon. The caffeine is a tough one, I wonder if it would do to cut back gradually so I'm not knocked out of commission for an entire two weeks.

Despite its ubiquity, caffeine is a serious, powerful drug. You will definitely want to wean yourself off. Believe it or not, I actually sought the help of a substance abuse counselor to help me detox. Even though I really wanted to quit I could not--definitely an addiction! These days, even a cup of green tea sends me reeling. So I just avoid the stuff altogether.

[disastermouse]

It could be that you're becoming aware of more persistent and 'deeper' anxieties? I've noticed an uptick in anxiety and stress when I sit more - it's paradoxical, but it's due to not being able to bury things very well.

For instance, my psychodrama regarding romance is messing me up something fierce right now.

Chet