Baloney! (... and ZFI)

[Rimon]

Re: Baloney! (... and ZFI)

I really like your skeptic approach Jundo, I smile and bow every time I read the Kalama sutra on not believing in something just because an authority says it so, but because it goes well with reason and our experience, and I'd say that this is Treeleaf approach too. So... I'm looking forward for that book!

Big gassho

[Jundo]

Re: Baloney! (... and ZFI)

Jundo, I didn't know you were so controversial in the 'Buddhist world'. Don't have time to follow all this nonsense. Good luck with your book.

This is the Wisest approach, Rich.

Gassho, J

[RichardH]

Re: Baloney! (... and ZFI)

There are a number of issues raised.. Hagiography, legend... myth. Incantation. The "psychic" or Subtle. Ontological absolutes of all kinds.. idealist and positivist etc.

view is view is view... around some things I have clear view. For instance the difference between historical legend making, and the mundane lives of actual people. ..Around other subjects, like the more subtle aspects and dynamics of body mind and world.. in all honesty.. for me the jury can only be out.

As far as killing the Buddha goes.. I guess that is Zazen, and I look forward to reading your book as well, Jundo.

....At the same time here is this wonderful teaching you gave.. pointing to the coinless coin....

Ah, two sides of the no sided coin ... samsara is nirvana, nirvana precisely samsara.

That's why this is Practice-Realization ... just like painting. You are an artist. Did you learn to paint in a day? Have you actually gotten better at it over the years even though each painting is one by one?

So, here is how I live this in life.

In Zazen, one experiences (A) a realm with no thought of this or that, something to add or take away, me and you ... free of conflict, flowing, whole.

And then there is (B) day to day messy life, places to go and people to see, always something in need of doing or fixing or which I wish were otherwise than what is, me bumping into you, frictions great and small, a million sometimes beautiful and sometimes horribly ugly pieces ... flowers and weeds, peace and war.

The state of wholeness (A) is lovely ... but a mistake to think that only such is freedom from Dukkha. In turn (B) is Dukkha, but it is a mistake to think it is or need only be experienced so.

So, for the experienced Zen practitioner, it is possible to learn to "flip a switch" to move mentally and physically, at will at various moments in life, between (A) and (B). Shikantaza Zazen is the vehicle that teaches us this skill. When (B) gets too hectic, ugly, fearful or any time ... switch to (A). We learn this trick.

However, in Shikantaza, one also learns another view and taste (C) ... (or better said in 'Zen Speak', Not-A-Not-B ) ... where (A) is shining right through and through (B) like the white, open, whole canvas that holds all that is painted upon it. As (A) shines in silent illumination, (B) becomes translucent ... there is a Peace of One Piece which holds all the million broken pieces of life. So, more and more one might experience, for example, a "messy life" simultaneously lit by a certain Purity which comes from dropping all thought of clean, dirty, pure or impure ... places to go and people to see, simultaneously with the experience of no place in need of going and constant total arrival ... working to make things better, stop the war and cure the diseases, even while tasting that things are just as they are with nothing to add or take away ... you and me and frictions, simultaneously free of you and me and frictions ... a Beauty and Wholeness that somehow sweeps up and holds both the beautiful and ugly ... a One Piece Peace that is peace and war and all the broken pieces ... ALL AT ONCE, AS ONE.

The canvas is there, but needs the painting to manifest life. The painting of beauty and ugliness is there, always the canvas holding all together. How to come and experience this more and more? Zazen ... Painting life, Practice.

Isn't that more amazing than the most fabulous invention?! Where is this groundless ground? What is "this"? I don't know! All I know is, as you say...

How to come and experience this more and more? Zazen

Gassho, kojip

[Jundo]

Re: Baloney! (... and ZFI)

Hey Guys,

You know, lest someone fails to understand the point ...

When I write somethings like "I DON'T BELIEVE IN BUDDHA, that's why I believe in Buddha", in my heart it is the same as this old foreign trouble maker with a bigger nose and a whiter beard than little me ... You may have heard the story ...

Bodhidharma was invited to visit the Emperor Wu of Liang, who was a great patron of Buddhism. The Emperor had built many monasteries, and he asked Bodhidharma what merit his generosity had earned. "No merit," said Bodhidharma. Startled, the Emperor asked Bodhidharma the supreme truth of the Dharma. "Vast emptiness; nothing holy," replied Bodhidharma. Finally, the Emperor asked, "Who are you?" "I know not," said Bodhidharma.

Also this old son of a gun ...

At one time, Danxia Tianran (739-824 AD) stayed at Wisdom Woods Temple. During some extremely cold weather, he took a wooden statue of Buddha and burned it in the fire to get warm. The Temple Director got extremely upset with Tainran and yelled, 'Why are you burning my wooden Buddha?' Tianran pulled some burning embers from the fire and said, 'I'm burning the buddha to get the sacred relics from it.' The Temple Director said, 'How can a wooden buddha have sacred relics?' Tianran said, 'Well, if it doesn't have sacred relics, let's burn a couple more of them.'

But do not doubt that Danxia also bowed down to Buddha statues!

Gassho, J

[disastermouse]

Re: Baloney! (... and ZFI)

Funny how a bunch of religion nostalgics would gladly welcome and revere the provokative teachings of our ancestors ( once dead, you always get extra credit and mileage) and dismiss the same teaching in the living voice of a white bearded barbarian living in Japan.

Gassho

Taigu

Ha! Ha!

Gassho

Chet

[Rev R]

Re: Baloney! (... and ZFI)

I think the most polite thing I can add here (and on the Tribulation topic) is: HUMBUG!

[markkemark]

Re: Baloney! (... and ZFI)

It might freak some people out that when a teacher says something... maybe brilliant, maybe not... it appears to be accepted like a unique pearl of wisdom by post after grateful post. That might have a "drink the cool-aid" look to people who have never attended a Dharma talk anywhere... because that is how Dharma talks are received everywhere.

I have seen people questioning what you are referring to, like, "Why is everyone so gushy over there?" On those threads here, I take it as people acknowledging that they heard the talk or read the post. What better way to do so than to say, "Thanks"?

Unlike these other fora Treeleaf is a sangha. NB is a mishmash of traditions with no teacher present except for a Theravadin monk posting the Pali canon bit by bit. ZFI has teachers coming from different Zen traditions that are often not on the same page. These sites, like Buddhist fora in general, also have a chronic problem.. anyone who thinks he/she has achieved great unsurpassed enlightenment can log-on and bug people. A typical Buddhist forum becomes a platform for these self-ordained teachers. This kind of thing may be why there is doubt about the cred of online sangha activity.. online Buddhism has a poor track record. Treeleaf is using this medium in a new way.. it has great potential.

Yes that is a very important point and distinction. Treeleaf is NOT a "buddhist forum"... it is a Soto Zen sangha![/quote]


_/_ Gassho

[lorax]

Re: Baloney! (... and ZFI)

I think a critical point has been made in some of these posts. Treeleaf has a forum that we bat things around in however the core of Treeleaf is the sangha and the teaching of Taigu and Jundo.

When I started practicing with Treeleaf several years ago, it was some time before I seriously looked at the forum. What drew me was the teaching of Jundo who at that time had a simple posting in Tricycle magazine asking folks to join him in his commitment to sit daily. I soon found wonderful teaching went along with this invitation. Later as Treeleaf “grew” Jundo was joined by Taigu. One of the most significant periods with Treeleaf was preparing for Jukai and the sewing of my first rakusu under Taigu's guidance.

What has developed is a simple practice, my altar is a wide adobe window sill where sits an old Christmas cactus that changes with the seasons and always the shadows of movement in the trees outside. The statue of Buddha, the mala beads, the prayer wheel my mother brought from Tibet years ago, all sit on a shelf, valued but not necessary to any practice.

What has kept me here is the teaching and knowing Jundo is just a few key strokes away when the S….hits the fan as it often does in my life. That and all of you folks that while separated by great distances still are together in sharing our practice day to day.

Big difference from the open Buddhist forums found across the internet.

Peace

Jim