'That'll do pig

[Jinyo]

Re: 'That'll do pig

When it comes to praise and blame "out in the world"... career and so forth... I have enjoyed good fortune, and there is little need for approval... unless income is hanging on it. This is, for me, a Sangha thing. Maybe in part because I practiced for a long time in a tradition with a two tier Sangha.. The monastics (the real deal).. and the laity (the wannabes) . The ordained Sangha were always deferred to.. and the laity tended to be a bit clueless when they were not around.. huddling together for warmth.

Not sure I see a clear division between being 'out in the world' and The Sangha. Two tiered Sangha or two tirered world it's all practice - thinking about what that gold star really represents.

Gassho

Willow

[RichardH]

Re: 'That'll do pig

When it comes to praise and blame "out in the world"... career and so forth... I have enjoyed good fortune, and there is little need for approval... unless income is hanging on it. This is, for me, a Sangha thing. Maybe in part because I practiced for a long time in a tradition with a two tier Sangha.. The monastics (the real deal).. and the laity (the wannabes) . The ordained Sangha were always deferred to.. and the laity tended to be a bit clueless when they were not around.. huddling together for warmth.

Not sure I see a clear division between being 'out in the world' and The Sangha. Two tiered Sangha or two tirered world it's all practice - thinking about what that gold star really represents.

Gassho

Willow

It is all practice.... but praise has a different effect depending on who is praising and what is being praised. If the mailman says... "I like your shoes", I'd just say "thanks", without being particularly moved. If a teacher I respect says ... "That was well spoken", it means much more.


It isn't a big deal... but there are times when that does come up. I imagine it is fairly common.

[RichardH]

Re: 'That'll do pig

Hi Willow.. “Two tier” sangha was referring to Theravada Buddhism , where according to tradition. (and some say the suttas) only a monastic can fully realize the Dharma. That realization is defined quite differently than in Zen... and is also gradualist. Lay people could cultivate virtuous qualities and wisdom... and realize “Nibbana (Nirvana) with remainder” a kind of consolation Nirvana, while only the monastics could realize the final Nirvana of Arahants, which was beyond the ken of the laity. This “Nirvana without remainder”.. is not the Bodhisattva way. So it is a different kind of tradition.. and a very different Sangha dynamic. It trains a certain kind of deference to the ordained sangha.... and ordinary lay people, sadly, sell themselves short. It is structural. This is talking from experience.

Gassho.

[Nenka]

Re: 'That'll do pig

Ha! Gold stars. I'm still the kid who says she doesn't give a shit about gold stars . . . until she stops getting them. :roll:

Gassho

Jen

[alan.r]

Re: 'That'll do pig

there were two fears I experienced - rejection, and 'losing the muse'....that mystifying place where the ideas and inspiration come from - that part that feels like you have no business laying a claim on it. The criticism feels personal because it feels like you're being told that you didn't do right by whatever it was that came through you, that you muddled it up or got in the way or were simply not a suitable conduit for whatever the hell that 'it' is.

Chet, that. Exactly.

Willow, thanks for the comment and the advice. You're right about luck being a big part of the process (and connections, I often think). Right now I'm in a place of let-go, just write. Fine being there too after years of fighting, and like Chet says, muddling up and getting in the way of the 'thing'. Can I buy your book through amazon?

Kojip, oh, I guess I didn't realize it was a Sangha thing alone. I can relate regardless. Still though, for me writing is Zen. And teachers don't always have to wear robes, though I see what you mean. I also practiced in the Theravada tradition before coming here.

Gassho,
Alan

[Jundo]

Re: 'That'll do pig

Hi Willow.. “Two tier” sangha was referring to Theravada Buddhism , where according to tradition. (and some say the suttas) only a monastic can fully realize the Dharma. That realization is defined quite differently than in Zen... and is also gradualist. Lay people could cultivate virtuous qualities and wisdom... and realize “Nibbana (Nirvana) with remainder” a kind of consolation Nirvana, while only the monastics could realize the final Nirvana of Arahants, which was beyond the ken of the laity. This “Nirvana without remainder”.. is not the Bodhisattva way. So it is a different kind of tradition.. and a very different Sangha dynamic. It trains a certain kind of deference to the ordained sangha.... and ordinary lay people, sadly, sell themselves short. It is structural. This is talking from experience.

Gassho.

Hi,

The above is an interpretation of Buddhism. As Buddhism became the Mahayana, the vision moved toward enlightenment as open to anyone ... male or female, monastic or householder (although monastic life was seen as the easier road, it was not the exclusive road), and immediately realizable in this life and world. Of course, even Mahayanists disagreed on how available to the householder, but the popularity of the Vimalakirti Sutra, Queen Srimala, characters like the lay 6th Patriarch Hui-Neng, Layman Peng and others taught the complete availablity of Liberation to lay people.

The Mahayana folks tended to write off Theravadan teachings (and even other Mahayana teachings that seemed to convey a different message) as "lesser" Teachings that the Buddha was preaching to people who needed that particular medicine, and who were not ready for the heavy-weight Teachings.

Of course, the reality is that ... for thousands of years since Gautama Buddha's time ... most lay folks did not have the time, leisure, access to teachers and Teachings of the monastics, so were at a definite disadvantage. Things are no longer quite so, and monastery walls are tumbling.

viewtopic.php?p=56193#p56193

However, yes, for thousands of years ... even though many Buddhists preached a doctrine of the fruits of this Path being available to anyone, the reality was that the lay folks were largely relegated to earning "merit" by donating and supporting financially the monastics. Monastics tended (and still tend) to emphasize the primacy of monastic practice ... and to relegate lay folks to a secondary role. So, mixed signals exist on this question even within the Mahayana.

To paraphrase Orwell ... "All Pigs Are Equal, But Some Pigs Are More Equal Than Others".

Oink oink Gassho, J

[AlanLa]

Re: 'That'll do pig

I Soooooooooooo want to be the pig that is MORE equal than the other pig.
But wait, if wanting to be more equal makes me LESS equal than that other pig....
Hmmm, never mind.
I'll just sit with that.
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Unless maybe Buddha has... you know....
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a preference
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not that I care
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because I don't
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really....
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I mean it
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OK, whatever!