The pursuit of happiness, or not

[Taigu]

Re: The pursuit of happiness, or not

Hi Markkkemark,

Certainly not. The balanced state in not a self centered activity or a selfish activity. So everything that opens you up to others, displaying a Bodhisattva mindset and action, is more than welcome. Just don't be attached to what you do, don't look back, learn to" make the tea and leave"as we say in our tradition.

gassho

[Jundo]

Re: The pursuit of happiness, or not

If Vegas was able to take bets on such things, I would've cleaned up on what Jundo said. I had it pegged pretty darn close. I would only add that when be sad, go ahead and be sad, but go do something that might bring you happiness so that you are less sad. It's the old acceptance without acceptance. For example, if you are sad, be perfectly sad; but if talking a walk in the woods makes you happy, then go take that walk in the woods and be perfect in the happiness that it brings. I will be placing a heavy bet in Vegas that Jundo will agree on this. Cha-ching! .

Cha-ching, you have me pegged! That should make you happy! :wink:

I guess, as I am older and move on in this Practice, I don't run toward "happiness" like I did in my younger days ... and I don't run from "sad" experiences as quickly. Sometimes, I sit still and don't run toward or from them at all!

And the things that make me happy are simpler and all around ... more than before they are the "things that money can't buy". (I bought a new computer yesterday, and that sure will make me happy for awhile ... but not nearly as deeply as looking at the butterfly perched outside my window frame this morning).

I am much much MUCH happier as a person than I was 30 years ago, even though that certainly does not mean I am happy about all of life all the time ... even the bitter parts. Certainly not! But there is a kind of Joy & Wholeness that transcends ordinary "happy" and "sad".

Cha-ching!

Gassho, J

[ghop]

Re: The pursuit of happiness, or not

I'm happiest when I forget myself.

gassho
Greg

[AlanLa]

Re: The pursuit of happiness, or not

If Vegas was able to take bets on such things, I would've cleaned up on what Jundo said. I had it pegged pretty darn close. I would only add that when be sad, go ahead and be sad, but go do something that might bring you happiness so that you are less sad. It's the old acceptance without acceptance. For example, if you are sad, be perfectly sad; but if talking a walk in the woods makes you happy, then go take that walk in the woods and be perfect in the happiness that it brings. I will be placing a heavy bet in Vegas that Jundo will agree on this. Cha-ching! .

Cha-ching, you have me pegged! That should make you happy! :wink:

I guess, as I am older and move on in this Practice, I don't run toward "happiness" like I did in my younger days ... and I don't run from "sad" experiences as quickly. Sometimes, I sit still and don't run toward or from them at all!

And the things that make me happy are simpler and all around ... more than before they are the "things that money can't buy". (I bought a new computer yesterday, and that sure will make me happy for awhile ... but not nearly as deeply as looking at the butterfly perched outside my window frame this morning).

I am much much MUCH happier as a person than I was 30 years ago, even though that certainly does not mean I am happy about all of life all the time ... even the bitter parts. Certainly not! But there is a kind of Joy & Wholeness that transcends ordinary "happy" and "sad".

Cha-ching!

Gassho, J

Cha-ching indeed

Allow me to paraphrase and expand from the above.

As I grow older in this practice, I don't recognize the same sort of happiness I did in my younger days. My disabled body is deteriorating, and due to some recent health issues I recognize I just can't chase after that same old delusion of happiness like I used to. While there may be some sadness with that, I have taken it as an aspect of investigation on and off (the wheelchair) cushion. I don't wheel towards the same old stuff, but I am still figuring out what I am going towards, or maybe how to just be more still with what's here rather than what I think (delusion) might be over there. I have been figuring this out via that straight path to the the (wheelchair) zafu, because I don't actually own a zafu.

And the things that make me happier are simpler all around. I bought a nice queen anne chair and placed it in front of my stereo (which is pretty cheap) so that I can hear it better. I just came from that new spot, smiling all the time, as I listened to music that gave me that smile (Levon Helm' Ramble at the Ryman, among other albums). In the past... well, the just sitting with music like now (ok, there were a couple glasses of wine, too) would never happen; rather it would have been some chasing of experience (more wine or stronger, more and louder music, etc.) that I thought (delusion) that made me happy. That's the upside down "U" I referred to in the first post. I know now, because of this practice, that there is a middle way beyond just moderation, however.

I am a much happier person than I was just a few years ago. I am a much happier person since I took up this practice and joined Treeleaf and took Jukai. I am nowhere near happy all the time, nor do I desire to be. In fact, I get pretty pissed off some times (search "getting mad fits sometimes" here), but I am ok with all of that. Those feeling states come and go like clouds now in comparison to then. The storms still happen, but they pass more quickly now. I am not looking to be happy by getting rid of storm clouds. That's just silly!

That joy and wholeness that transcends happy and sad is where I am going. But I take that Bodhisattva vow every day that says it's non-attainable. That's the Path I am exploring. Thanks for letting me share it here.

And thanks Jundo for the guidance along the way and the prompting post. You too, Taigu, my fellow curmudgeon :wink:

[murasaki]

Re: The pursuit of happiness, or not

Cha-ching!

This is an insightful thread...and very a propos to my current situation. Deep gassho.

Julia

[disastermouse]

Re: The pursuit of happiness, or not

Awesome thread!

To Alan:

The Magid book is recommended...although it may be my recommendation will cause you too not want to read it.

Chet

[AlanLa]

Re: The pursuit of happiness, or not

Dan Gilbert, wellness psychologist, on synthesizing happiness. Very apropos.
[youtube]

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[disastermouse]

Re: The pursuit of happiness, or not

Something occurred to me the other day. I can be rather obsessive about things. Occasionally life brings me low or I simply become dissatisfied with things...not because I haven't gotten what I want, but because I've gotten what I want and am not 'happy'...or I've made a big purchase or reached a goal and it leaves me feeling empty. When that happens, I can go on a bit of a 'Buddhist bender' where I truly try to de-emphasize the attainment of happiness. I've noticed, though - that this can leave me rather directionless, and no matter the depth of my dissatisfaction, I eventually start the cycle all over again.

(Bear with with me, I'll bring this around to how it's relevant to the conversation.)

This cycle is Samsara - but the things, the desires, or the acting itself is not Samsara. It's the wavering between the pursuit and the relinquishment of the pursuit that is problematic, because in each of these, there is a very profound investment of self-idea. To relinquish pleasure or goals has in it a very significant ego-idea (it is quite definitely repression, and in order to repress something, there must be a very strong sense of self doing the repressing) and to pursue pleasure or goals with the idea that there will be a 'happiness end point' also requires a great deal of delusive ego-idea.

With the ego very invested, both paths are likely to bring suffering. However, I'm starting to see that you can be fully eyes-open about the fact that goal-attainment does not bring happiness, and yet playfully follow where your desires are beckoning - granted this is only in the pursuit of natural pleasures and goals - goals that aren't in themselves harmful to yourself or others.

IMHO.

Chet

[Jinyo]

Re: The pursuit of happiness, or not

Chet wrote

I'm starting to see that you can be fully eyes-open about the fact that goal-attainment does not bring happiness, and yet playfully follow where your desires are beckoning - granted this is only in the pursuit of natural pleasures and goals - goals that aren't in themselves harmful to yourself or others.

I read this before I drifted off last night and 'am still pondering on it this morning.

also - To relinquish pleasure or goals has in it a very significant ego-idea (it is quite definitely repression, and in order to repress something, there must be a very strong sense of self doing the repressing

I feel you've hit on something important here Chet.

I think I might want to use the term relinguishment rather than repression (to relinquish is a conscious act - but repression may be less aware or unconscious). Lately I've been wondering if relinguishing goals in the pursuit of a calmer state of mind has flattened my emotions a bit. I ask myself - 'is this just a buffer against disappointment?'

I don't have a clear answer to this - still pondering - and there's no doubt life is more comfortable with less stressing about achieving - but there's definately a (subtle) loss of drive.

Perhaps it's just a shift in gear - the goals are still there - but I'm approaching them is a more relaxed manner?

One goal I did set myself a few years back - was that I would never want/desire something to the point that the desiring of it would make me/anybody else discontented and unhappy.

I guess it's all about balance - and a shift in perception.

Still working on it.

Gassho

Willow

[AlanLa]

Re: The pursuit of happiness, or not

I am learning that goals have little to do with happiness. First of all, goals set up a duality of sorts; if you don't have something then you develop a goal to have it. The problem then becomes the duality of goal attainment (happy) or not (sad), or so we think (as the video explains). Same old trap, just new furniture. I am trying to get away from the whole goal-to-happiness cycle of samsara, as Chet puts it, even on the day-to-day level. That being said, however, I have a goal to get a lot of work done today, and if I don't do it I will be unhappy, as will all the students expecting grades tomorrow. Attaining this grading goal won't make me happy as much as it will keep me from being unhappy. But once again, that leaves the duality samsara trap. Such is life, so where is the nirvana that's right here in that samsara trap?

When I mash up the above video with previous Buddhist teachings I get the following: Accepting things as it is leads to happiness. That's where I'm trying to go. But I am in trouble as soon as I call it a goal, so let me rephrase: Learning the process of accepting things as it is leads to a process of being happy. I gladly accept I have about 8 hours of grading to do today, and getting through all that is just a process, because there is lots more to do after that, both in terms of grading and life in general.

Goals (even though we need them in the practical sense) lead to the delusion of outcome, but our practice tells us life is more about process. So where do we put the emphasis? Well, we are all in the process of figuring that out, because we can't have goal of finding ONE answer. It just (co)depends.

Ok, I gotta go to work now.

[Kaishin]

Re: The pursuit of happiness, or not

That is hard... can we maintain goals without being emotionally *attached* to them such that they cause us to suffer?

[AlanLa]

Re: The pursuit of happiness, or not

One goal I did set myself a few years back - was that I would never want/desire something to the point that the desiring of it would make me/anybody else discontented and unhappy.

Willow wrote that, and it didn't hit me until hours later. The reason it took so long was really just one word - "me." That we shouldn't want something to the point it hurts others most any reasonable person would agree with. I mean, you don't have to be a Buddhist to say that hurting another for your own pleasure is wrong (though we may do it more often than we admit), but to do it to yourself? What?

My neighbor, who is a good country cook, likes to bring me food, usually after I've already eaten. This happened just the other night. She brought me a full meal - still hot - after I had only just a bit before eaten a nice, balanced, healthy meal. I was quite content (happy), but here was all this new delicious food, with dessert! So, with the delusion of moderation, I only ate the two pieces of buttered cornbread and the jelly donut dessert. Oh, it tasted so good, a goodness I mistook for happiness. But then I felt sooooo full, so unhappy that I had eaten all that extra, not so balanced or healthy food. This is just the latest of plenty of examples where I trade unhappiness later for what I think of as happiness now, but that's not true happiness; rather it's desire and delusion. In other words, instead of the happiness that comes with accepting "things as it is" (Suzuki), there are plenty of times when by pursuing more happiness I actually achieve unhappiness. Wow, this was an eye-opener for me.

Thanks, Willow!