Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

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  • disastermouse

    Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

    Something I've been noticing lately is how we each define Zen through our individual identity. Brad is punk, therefore the best Zen is punk also. Jundo treasures balance, even-ness, and nice-ness - hence to him Zen is balanced, even, and nice. I do it too... of course.

    But this isn't really Zen, is it?

    Chet
  • Kaishin
    Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 2322

    #2
    Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

    Yeah but everyone returns to the cushion when descending from the soapbox.
    Thanks,
    Kaishin (開心, Open Heart)
    Please take this layman's words with a grain of salt.

    Comment

    • alan.r
      Member
      • Jan 2012
      • 546

      #3
      Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

      Originally posted by disastermouse
      Something I've been noticing lately is how we each define Zen through our individual identity. Brad is punk, therefore the best Zen is punk also. Jundo treasures balance, even-ness, and nice-ness - hence to him Zen is balanced, even, and nice. I do it too... of course.

      But this isn't really Zen, is it?

      Chet
      It seems like the first paragraph is dealing with "Zen" from an individual (subjective) perspective. We are individual beings, singular, isolated, unique personalities, with egos however large or small.

      The second question seems to come from the universal (objective) side of things. How can a the subjective be Zen? The question might as well be How is an ego (subjective) part of the universal (objective) process?

      We are both. We have individual uniqueness, like a flower, but are part of the whole, actually are the universal process.

      Think back to Dogen: the moon reflected in a dewdrop.

      If a flower blooms yellow and not pink, do you question it's zen-ness?
      Shōmon

      Comment

      • Seiryu
        Member
        • Sep 2010
        • 620

        #4
        Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

        Originally posted by disastermouse
        But this isn't really Zen, is it?
        Does it really matter what Zen is or is not? Either which way, we are still trying to define something that needs no defining. You can define life in so many ways, have many different philosophical views about it, but what good is it if you are not living, breathing and actually entering into life as it is.

        Punk Zen, balanced zen, Koan zen, esoteric zen, all are good and useful. But all are just tools. Pointers. See where this is all pointing to and go to that place....


        Of course this is all just rambles from a highly deluded being....
        Humbly,
        清竜 Seiryu

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        • disastermouse

          #5
          Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

          I just think there's a bit of self-deception going on and thought that maybe we can look at that. It all started when I thought about Chugai's posts - first the Rinzai references and then the shock photos. It reminds me how much we need the sangha to help keep us honest.

          Chet

          Comment

          • alan.r
            Member
            • Jan 2012
            • 546

            #6
            Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

            Originally posted by Seiryu
            Originally posted by disastermouse
            But this isn't really Zen, is it?

            Punk Zen, balanced zen, Koan zen, esoteric zen, all are good and useful. But all are just tools. Pointers. See where this is all pointing to and go to that place....
            Again, thanks Seiryu. Chet, I don't know what you mean: the shock photos and rinzai reminds you we need to be honest? The self-deception reminds you?
            Shōmon

            Comment

            • disastermouse

              #7
              Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

              Originally posted by alan.r
              Originally posted by Seiryu
              Originally posted by disastermouse
              But this isn't really Zen, is it?

              Punk Zen, balanced zen, Koan zen, esoteric zen, all are good and useful. But all are just tools. Pointers. See where this is all pointing to and go to that place....
              Again, thanks Seiryu. Chet, I don't know what you mean: the shock photos and rinzai reminds you we need to be honest? The self-deception reminds you?
              The Rinzai post about what's-his-name criticizing Soto as 'do nothing' zen made me realize that for a certain type of person and a particular viewpoint, it may indeed be that way. So for him, Zen was Rinzai - all other Zen was 'improper'. The shock photos reminded me that maybe for Chugai, shock is the test of one's practice - so for him, he thinks immunity to shock or aversion is the best Zen. Seeing all these points of view and thinking about how they may be correct and yet incomplete in their ways - that reminds me that my own view is also likely incomplete and should not be held so firmly. Without the sangha, such realization would likely not happen.

              Chet

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              • alan.r
                Member
                • Jan 2012
                • 546

                #8
                Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

                Originally posted by disastermouse

                Seeing all these points of view and thinking about how they may be correct and yet incomplete in their ways - that reminds me that my own view is also likely incomplete and should not be held so firmly. Without the sangha, such realization would likely not happen.

                Chet
                These two sentences are right on (for me (heh). We're practicing alone-together and learning and sharing alone-together.

                So, was your initial question ironic?

                Isn't really zen? Everything is; nothing is; just practice, alone-together.
                Shōmon

                Comment

                • alan.r
                  Member
                  • Jan 2012
                  • 546

                  #9
                  Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

                  Damn, I should have said "unlearning."

                  Minus one zen point.
                  Shōmon

                  Comment

                  • ghop
                    Member
                    • Jan 2010
                    • 438

                    #10
                    Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

                    Originally posted by disastermouse
                    Something I've been noticing lately is how we each define Zen through our individual identity. Brad is punk, therefore the best Zen is punk also. Jundo treasures balance, even-ness, and nice-ness - hence to him Zen is balanced, even, and nice. I do it too... of course.

                    But this isn't really Zen, is it?
                    This question reads like a koan.

                    Here's my answer:



                    gassho
                    greg

                    Comment

                    • Jundo
                      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                      • Apr 2006
                      • 39074

                      #11
                      Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

                      Originally posted by disastermouse
                      Jundo treasures balance, even-ness, and nice-ness - hence to him Zen is balanced, even, and nice.
                      Bullshit!

                      Where would you get a bunch of crap like that!? :twisted:

                      It's like sailing life's seas ... some rare days flat and sunny without a care, but oftimes stormy, sometimes a Tsunami to wash us away! All the sailing, fella! Always on the cutting edge of life and death even when deceptively still ... cause the winds can blow up in a second.

                      Sometimes it is all "balanced and even and nice" ... sometimes we have to latch ourself to the wheel so as not to be swept over ... sometimes we vomit over the side ... sometimes, finally, we are swept away into the deep ...

                      ALL THE SAILING! You think this Practice is like a rowboat in the park? It is a vessel to the other shore.

                      But know the Balance that sweeps in and out all that, for the waves ... no matter how terrifying ... are just the Sea all along. There is a Stillness at the eye of the storm, a Silence in the screams of the terrified, a Calm in the cancer ward, a Peace amid all the broken and bloody pieces!

                      Don't you put words in my mouth, fella! Obviously, you have not learned a damn thing since coming here. Crap, spoken without any sense in life of what is "even" and "uneven". Maybe that's why you keep falling off the deck. :twisted:

                      Gassho, J
                      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                      Comment

                      • Ekai
                        Member
                        • Feb 2011
                        • 664

                        #12
                        Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

                        Originally posted by disastermouse
                        I just think there's a bit of self-deception going on and thought that maybe we can look at that. It all started when I thought about Chugai's posts - first the Rinzai references and then the shock photos. It reminds me how much we need the sangha to help keep us honest.

                        Chet
                        I disagree. I understood what Chugai was referring to and his points on non-dualism but giving links to horrific photos and videos without any warning to Sangha members on what they will see if they click on those links is just disrespectful and rude. There are plenty of others ways on keeping us honest and helping each other see the truth instead of showing us very disturbing images. I was really bothered by those links especially since my 2- year old sits on my lap sometimes when I am on the forum. He does not need to see violent images and quite frankly, neither do I. Luckily, he did not see those images since he was playing. Keeping the Sangha honest involves communicating with mindfulness, truth, wisdom and compassion. I agree we need to show tough love to express a point we feel strongly about but it can be done more appropriately with respect to others.

                        Gassho,
                        Ekai

                        Comment

                        • Myoku
                          Member
                          • Jul 2010
                          • 1487

                          #13
                          Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

                          Originally posted by disastermouse
                          Something I've been noticing lately is how we each define Zen through our individual identity. Brad is punk, therefore the best Zen is punk also. Jundo treasures balance, even-ness, and nice-ness - hence to him Zen is balanced, even, and nice. I do it too... of course.
                          Exactly, a tomato tastes like a tomato and acts like a tomato, a cherry tastes and behaves different, we all have our place and function,
                          even though some tomato might look like a cherry at times
                          _()_
                          Myoku

                          Comment

                          • Hans
                            Member
                            • Mar 2007
                            • 1853

                            #14
                            Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

                            Hello,

                            interesting topic. Just my two unenlightened Unsui cents coming up....as long as we have a radical and no holds barred will towards truthfulness at the center of our practise, it's perfectly okay for each and everyone to have their own individual "garnish". We are all telling stories to ourselves and others all the time anyhow...that's okay, we just shouldn't believe those stories


                            Gassho,

                            Hans Chudo Mognen

                            Comment

                            • Omoi Otoshi
                              Member
                              • Dec 2010
                              • 801

                              #15
                              Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

                              It depends on what you mean by Zen. What does Zen mean to you? There is Zen buddhist practice and Zen buddhist practitioners. Since people are different, their practices are different too. And Zen buddhist practice is different from Theravadin practice. Zen buddhist practice is the direct pointing path. All these practices point to the same moon, but they are not the moon. Zen is not the moon. Brad is Brad and Jundo is Jundo. None of them flawless and both of them perfectly what they are. Zen masters. Nothing holy.

                              Gassho,
                              Pontus
                              In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
                              you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
                              now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
                              the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

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