Sitting tips for extremely unflexible people?

[helena]

When I signed up for this forum I decided to start sitting zazen. Problem is: I can't! I really try to sit in the burmese position, but I cannot get my knees to touch the ground and it feels anything but stable. It feels like all my weight rests on my ankles. I tried stacking pillows and towels under the zafu in order to raise the height, but that did not help enough either.

I don't have any medical condition, I am not overweight or old, so I don't see why I shouldn't be able to sit in this position.

I tried some stretching exercises I found here and will continue to do them (except the last one, which is impossible for me). I am hesitant to try yoga lessons because many yoga positions are not well suited for women and put too much stress on a woman's organs. I am willing to go to a yoga center and discuss the possibilities if it is necessary though.

Any other ideas?

Helena.

[Jundo]

Hi Helena,

One of the few limitations of Treeleaf is that I cannot see your sitting position (unless we consult with a camera on your computer). I would continue to aim for the Burmese Postition, a little bit more each day, until the muscles stretch. It is important that the knees (both) rest flat on the ground and that the position is comfortable. In the way that I teach, the spine should rest about in the center of the Zafu (or slightly in front of the center point), the chin should be slightly pulled in (like a soldier at attention, put with no tension or stiffness), the back should be straight (as if a string were running from the top of your head to the ceiling and ever so slightly tugging your head up to the roof ... just ever so slightly). Eyes should be 1/3 or 2/3 open. Mouth closed, tongue resting on the roof of the mouth.

Maybe other folks around here could offer other points or guidance. I might combine all the good points into our "Official How to Zazen".

Getting guidance from a yoga instructor might be a good idea, if they teach Burmese (you should do that, then maybe try later to work up to Lotus) and if they let you bring your Zafu (and not sit with your backside on the floor... that is not good).

In the meantime, you might also switch around between Burmese and Seiza.

Here is some more information. Ignore the advise about breathing, and just breath normally (but as if from below the diaphragm, as if the breath were originating about an inch below the belly button.

http://www.mro.org/zmm/teachings/meditation.php

Gassho, Jundo

[Mensch]

Sorry, no actual solution here but lots of sympathy as I (male, 43) suffer from the same problem (which does not change in the least over time). Since I abhor Seiza (kneeling) posture I simply stuff small firm buckwheat cushions under my knees which allows a stable and erect posture. The only problem is: it makes my leg (only the right) fall asleep badly which is fine at home but an absolute no-no in the zendo.

Good luck!

Mensch

[will]

Hi Helena. I had the same problem before. You might want to tuck your foot in more. Don't try to put your feet too far in front of you. You can try putting your backfoot (inner foot) right up against your upper thigh, really tuck it. Then wait until the muscles loosen a bit. Keep the extra cushion too.

Hope that helps.

Gassho Will

[Gregor]

I'm really inflexible myself, I had the same problem too but have been working through it. I usually sit Burmese now, and am trying at half lotus, which I can get into. It took me nearly two years to work up to where I am. In addition I took Kripalu Yoga classes for about five months, really helped.

So long story short it takes a ton of work, sorry I don't have any easy answers. Wish I did because I always, always prefer to take the path of least resistance.

[Keishin]

sitting posture

Hello Helena:

Just a bit further down under the topic "Sitting Posture" you'll find quite a few suggestions regarding sitting.

I have knees which subluxate/dislocate rather easily, and have had a knee go off tract getting up from sitting, or getting in to sitting position--so I sit with small pillows under my knees. For me, this allows me to have stable contact with the floor
via the pillows, and permits me to have a solid 3 point position (while my feet are in contact with the floor, the active contact is the buttocks right beneath the base of the spine and the two knees.

It is well worth reading more about the postural aspects of zazen. Sitting correctly really does make a difference.

Good luck.

gassho
keishin

[Smoggyrob]

Hi Helena:

Good for you, getting right down to it. You have my sympathy on the inflexibility, I'm about as flexible as Pinocchio before he became a real boy. When I started I could sit Burmese (or as Brad has called it, "Half-assed Lotus)" but Half Lotus was out of the question. A couple of years (of weekly sitting) later I have days where I can do a half-hour in Half Lotus and I have days where I switch to Burmese fifteen minutes in.

A few of the people I sit with are Yoga instructors, and have shown me some hip-opening stretches that really help. One person I sit with uses cushions under her knees and an elevated zafu. I tried that once and it's pretty comfy. I really recommend regular hip-opening stretches, because if your hips are tight you can end up twisting your knees and doing some serious damage. But don't let it get you down, we all come to this practice as we are. As the great Zen philosopher Donald Rumsfeld said, "You go to zazen with the flexibility you have, not the flexibility you might want, or wish to have, at a later time." Do what you can, now, and tomorrow will take care of itself. Get some stretching advice from a Yoga instructor, you don't have to do poses if you're not comfortable with that.

Sitting is not the hardest thing about this practice, for me. Sitting /regularly/ is the hardest thing about this practice. If you have the discipline to sit every day, you're already most of the way there (hurray for you!). Just take care of your knees and keep at it. Flexibility will come in time.

Wishing you the best,

Rob

[helena]

Thank you so much for your help!
It is already good to know that I am not the only person who struggles with this. I tried again just now, with your tips, and it went better already! It helped much to tuck my inner foot in (thanks Will!). I also made a thicker "zabuton" and I made an entire tower of cushions, which I'm sure is not ideal, but does help for now (my daughter has been in heaven for the last few days, with all the cushions all over the place )

I always hear about sore knees and hips, but do other people have sore ankles, or does that mean that I am doing something wrong?

[Mensch]

You mean like twisted-sore or rather pressed-sore? I only feel my ankles
- when they carry too much wheigt due to knees lacking firm ground contact,
- when the Zabuton (padded mat under the legs) is too soft to cushion a hard floor.

A (useless) "indian style" position with crossed rather than parallel lower legs also puts stress on the ankles.

BTW: Solved the persistent "sleeping right leg problem" today simply by switching inner and outer leg – duh! :roll:

Gassho,


Mensch

[will]

helena

and I made an entire tower of cushions, which I'm sure is not ideal, but does help for now (my daughter has been in heaven for the last few days, with all the cushions all over the place )

Haha :lol: You'll find eventually it will get easier. By the way be careful with bouncing leg stretches. I heard they actually weaken your tendans.

I get sore ankles sometimes. If it gets too bad just adjust your sitting position ie. switch legs. However, if you find your switching your position every 2 minutes, then it's time to practice. That's usually just over thinking.

Mensch

Solved the persistent "sleeping right leg problem" today simply by switching inner and outer leg – duh!

Haha :lol:

[Dainin]

I can also relate, Helena. I am 40 and not very flexible, but even in my best shape in my 20's I never was. As was said here, I'm sure you'll get more and more used to sitting as your practice progresses. I have, even through the aching back and numb legs.

That said, the Burmese posture is just right for me. I have no aspirations towards "working up" to half or full lotus, or taking any type of yoga class. But that's just me. You have to find what works best for you.

Gassho,
Proud-Burmese-Posture-Sitting Keith

[helena]

Thanks again!
I used to have weak ankles, but I also used to be overweight, so I don't know if my ankles were just weak, or always under a lot of pressure. I used to have sore ankles while sitting on a seiza bench as well. That said, I do think the weight is not enough on my knees yet. I thought the soft zabuton helped, but maybe not.

Thanks for the warning not to overdo the stretches. I know that that overdoing anything can worsen the exact condition you are trying to improve, but this was a good reminder.

[Rev R]

You could also try practicing your posture while reading or watching television to help to teach your body to be used to sitting in that fashion.

r

[Eika]

You could also try practicing your posture while reading or watching television to help to teach your body to be used to sitting in that fashion.

r

Amen Brother R!!

I do the same thing and it helps quite a bit. At night when I read to the kids or when watching TV I will either stretch a little or sit in half lotus. I can really tell a difference now.

Every little bit helps (with emphasis on the word little). Patience . . .

Bill

[Ryan]

On the topics of sitting and soreness...

Seemingly regardless of position, I often find that at least one of my legs falls asleep. It happens at home occasionally, which isn't really a big deal, but it always seems to happen when I sit with others. This generally slows me down in standing to begin walking meditation between periods of zazen.

Anyone have solutions for this problem? It doesn't seem to happen as much at home, maybe it's the difference in the zafu I sit on?

-Ryan