There is No-Self ... or is there?

[Rich]

Re: There is No-Self ... or is there?

If understanding Buddhist philosophy leads one to let go of thinking that would be nice.

[Taigu]

Re: There is No-Self ... or is there?

Undertstanding Buddhist philosophy alone doesn't free anybody from suffering (but I am sure you have experienced that a million times, Rich)
It might take your butt to the cushion or to the market place. That s where you find the real work and the true undoing.

Counsciousness????????????????????????????????!


Not even.


and :

Maybe 'self' is more complex than the universe itself, and can exist in as many forms and manifestations.

More complex than the Univesre itself? Somebody here has not yet opened an eye on a blade of grass of the vast open sky.

By the way, welcome Gunther! :wink:


gassho


Taigu

[Run_CMD]

Re: There is No-Self ... or is there?

Counsciousness????????????????????????????????!


Not even.

I'm sorry for my lack of understanding. Please explain to me what conscioussness exactly is. In relation to the topic, self and no-self, I think conscioussness is rather relevant.

thanks

[Taigu]

Re: There is No-Self ... or is there?

Welcome Gunther.

You are the one using the word consciousness. So please, explain.

Imho, this has a new age taste, Mahayana Buddhist stuff spiced with cosmic perspectives.


Reality manifests when we drop views.

The dropping of all views is reality itself.

Everything else is but a dream.


gassho


T.

[Jundo]

Re: There is No-Self ... or is there?

I'm sorry for my lack of understanding. Please explain to me what conscioussness exactly is. In relation to the topic, self and no-self, I think conscioussness is rather relevant.

...

... you can not doubt the fact that you are conscious.

Hey again, Gunther.

Perhaps that is a problem ... "You" and "think" consciousness is rather relevant. "you" and "doubt/can not doubt" consciousness. Best to just sit and stop worrying, thinking about, doubting or not doubting this so-called "consciousness". Just Sit, stop putting descriptions and names on this so-called thing "consciousness" ... and let this so-called "consciousness" take care of so-called "consciousness".

'Self', as in me or you is a mental concept. Mental concepts have mental borders. That's why we can categorize and 'understand' the world. It's really divide and conquer. The problem is that reality doesn' thave any borders. ... The concept of 'self', together with the concecpt of "death" gives rise to dangerous illusions. If I die, wher will I go? ...

Enlightenment, as far as I understand, is simply the 'realisation' that I or me does not exist in reality. ...

This is all nice armchair philosophy, like talking about swimming and "what is water" instead of jumping in and really swimming ... being the water ... the whole ocean, and every single drop!

If there are no "borders" why do I need a passport to visit America next week? And whose photo is that on the passport? In our little corner of Buddhism as taught by Master Dogen, realizing that things and people are as a dream is only half the point ... and then living in this world of things and people is the whole point! Death and life may be something of a dream ... but now live this dream, and try not to muck it up too bad!

Master Dogen said that there is no need to travel to foreign lands to realize this truth, and it can be realized right where one sits Zazen ... right in one's life here and now. Yet, he crossed a border to China in order to realize this, then crossed another border back to Japan. If borders do not matter, and if Master Dogen simply realized that Dogen is a dream ... why did he even bother? (A Koan)

So, as was said by Bro. Taigu and others ... give up all this mental wheel spinning, and just sit-live ... just jump in the water and be the water, move one's arms with grace & balance, and swim forward.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jundo]

Re: There is No-Self ... or is there?

If you drink your tea, at which moment does the tea become 'you' ?

That is a good question too, and such a true observation! When does that tea "become you"? Where is the true source of the waters? Where does it go when you piss it out? It goes back into and out of something that is just you too all along.

All true. A Face of our Practice is to see all of reality, all time and space, inside a single tea cup!

Now, that being said ... just drink your tea. It is just a cup of boiled leaves, something to quench the thirst, sip with a snack, nothing special.

Got the point?

Gassho, J

PS - reminds a bit of this story ...

Nan-in, a Japanese teacher during the Meiji era (1868–1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor’s cup full, and then kept on pouring as the professor pontificated on and on about how the universe worked, consciousness and the meaning of tea.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. “It is overfull. No more will go in!”

“Like this cup,” Nan-in said, “you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?”

[Run_CMD]

Re: There is No-Self ... or is there?

Thanks Taigu

Welcome Gunther.

You are the one using the word consciousness. So please, explain.
Reality manifests when we drop views.

The dropping of all views is reality itself.

Everything else is but a dream.


gassho


T.

Note: I don't want to sound rude or like 'i know it all' but this is truly my honest opinion, and I don't think you want me to blindly accept anything that is said to me, so :

Reality, views, dreams, aren't those all happening in conscioussness? Can there be reality when there's no conscioussness ?
What's consioussness? A closet is made of wood or steel, but you keep things in the empty space inside. A letter is made of words, but it is written on an empty paper. Like this, consiousness is empty, there is nothing but consciousness itself, existing from moment to moment. The only real thing is that what never changes. Does conscioussness ever change ? Is my conscioussness different from yours ?

Self is consciousness being conscious of consciousness. The mistake happens when consiousness THINKS its some type of form like me or you. The point of zen (in my opinion) is to correct this mistake, to drop all thinking so you can experience reality yourself.

[Run_CMD]

Re: There is No-Self ... or is there?

Thank you Jundo for your kind replies.

... give up all this mental wheel spinning, and just sit-live ... just jump in the water and be the water, move one's arms with grace & balance, and swim forward.

Gassho, Jundo

I completely agree with your statements Jundo, but In my opinion, sitting zen is just a powerfull method for REALISATION (not 'understanding') that there is no YOU.
Once you realise that, what's the point of sitting if it's not for helping other beings realise?

Reminds me of the saying :
Zen is like a boat to get to England. If you run around London with your boat on your back, you got a problem.

[Jundo]

Re: There is No-Self ... or is there?

Can there be reality when there's no conscioussness ?

If there were no chocolate ice cream, could we still have sundaes? A closet is made of wood and steel and the empty space inside, but what are my hanging wool pants made of? A letter is made of words on empty paper, but what news are you going to write? Why is the only "real thing" that which never changes, and how do you know it never changes when it changes? Who is asking the questions "is my consciousness different from yours?" and who is answering? If my aunt had testicles, would she be my uncle? :roll:

The mistake happens when consiousness THINKS its some type of form like me or you. The point of zen (in my opinion) is to correct this mistake, to drop all thinking so you can experience reality yourself.

If the universe went to all the darn trouble to become you, why are you so sure it is mistaken?

If you drop all thinking "to experience reality itself", whose gonna eat that sundae, wear those pants, write the letter? They may not be real, but what a waste of good ice cream!

Zen is not a boat to london on your back, but a trip to here and there and back.

Sometimes around here, if someone asks questions just looking for confirmation of their pre-formed and not so fleshed-out opinions ... they get more questions.

Gassho, J

[JohnsonCM]

Re: There is No-Self ... or is there?

Of course there is a self. You are right there reading this are you not? You are unique and special and you reflect the endless possibilities of life. You are.

Of course there is no self. Once you read this, you are no longer the ‘you’ you were before reading it. You are not the same you as the one who took a breath three seconds ago. The things you’ve seen, heard, felt, learned, forgot, put down, picked up in just that amount of time, in just a split second of that amount of time, have changed you forever. You encompass and reflect all of life, like Indra’s Net, you are connected to every other thing on this earth and beyond in such a way as to never be able to truly cut yourself away from them.

It’s the grasping of the idea of “self” that gets you. That’s the trap. When you begin to think of the ‘self’ as something that sets you apart from others, that somehow severs the ties that bind us all heart-to-heart and mind-to-mind, that is where the folly lies. Perhaps this Great and Unchanging Universal Self Buddha seed thingy is really just that the only constant is that you change, and so are like the water of a river (the Ganges perhaps, see what I did there?). The river is always the river, never a mountain, never the ocean, never the sky. But the water that flows in that river fell from the clouds, ran down the mountain and makes its way to the sea, passing a particular point of the banks of that river only once. Until it evaporates and falls again, the same drop of water, but wholly different – an amazing journey behind it that changed it forever, and another waiting to happen when the clouds release it once more. And so the river is the sky, and the mountain, and the sea, and it always has been; and all while being just the river.

[Jinyo]

Re: There is No-Self ... or is there?

(....... nothing of any consequence to add - just a little poem I wrote a while back )

Consciousness

Consciousness stripped down is only sensation
so
I speak softly to the cat, breath in time with her purring,
in case I forget gentleness.
Then I burn the retina of my eyes
with the sight of the fire-flame crimson lily,
rooted in its pot on the patio – basking in the sunlight,
in case I forget colour.

Gassho

Willow

[ghop]

Re: There is No-Self ... or is there?

If the universe went to all the darn trouble to become you, why are you so sure it is mistaken?

Not sure why (kinda am though) but this blew me away. Well, I'm still here :lol: but it blew me away nevertheless.

Faith. Deep abiding trust in who we are, why we are, where we're going, etc. That there is something ultimately good at the ground of our existence. That we are not an accident, anymore than an apple or an orange is. That we don't have to "do" anything. That there is an underlying sense of grace to our lives. That we don't have to feel like there is an instruction manual that we must follow, and we'd better get it all right or we're gonna fail. That we can just drop all that effort and judgement and perfectionism and JUST BE. And be alright with the fact that we're never going to get it just right, never going to be perfect, never going to be Buddhas or Saints or whatever...BECAUSE ALL OF THAT IS JUST MENTAL CONCEPTS. To be unfailingly human, so-called flaws and all. And be ok with that. To be homeless. To be everywhere at home. To be no-self. To go with the flow, even while making every effort to do our best. To just sit, and let things happen as they will, as they are already happening without our involvement. To drop the illusion that we are in control. To change what we can change. To accept the perfection of this moment of reality, without concepts, without judgements, without demands. To be scared as hell at times and just be scared as hell. It's called The Way because it is fluid, has no beginning, has no end, and we're on it together. No one left behind.

Wow. I run my mouth a lot. (To be okay with that, too :mrgreen: )

gassho
Greg

[Heisoku]

Re: There is No-Self ... or is there?

Well said Greg....
This whole thread seems to track where my 'thinking' has been leading me all my life!
Now I am wholly a living practice and a living practice that is practising a life called me!
I feel as Greg said;

That we don't have to "do" anything. That there is an underlying sense of grace to our lives. That we don't have to feel like there is an instruction manual that we must follow, and we'd better get it all right or we're gonna fail. That we can just drop all that effort and judgement and perfectionism and JUST BE.

Gassho Greg, Jundo and Taigu.

[Jundo]

Re: There is No-Self ... or is there?

Faith. Deep abiding trust in who we are, why we are, where we're going, etc. That there is something ultimately good at the ground of our existence. That we are not an accident, anymore than an apple or an orange is. That we don't have to "do" anything. That there is an underlying sense of grace to our lives. That we don't have to feel like there is an instruction manual that we must follow, and we'd better get it all right or we're gonna fail. That we can just drop all that effort and judgement and perfectionism and JUST BE. And be alright with the fact that we're never going to get it just right, never going to be perfect, never going to be Buddhas or Saints or whatever...BECAUSE ALL OF THAT IS JUST MENTAL CONCEPTS. To be unfailingly human, so-called flaws and all. And be ok with that. To be homeless. To be everywhere at home. To be no-self. To go with the flow, even while making every effort to do our best. To just sit, and let things happen as they will, as they are already happening without our involvement. To drop the illusion that we are in control. To change what we can change. To accept the perfection of this moment of reality, without concepts, without judgements, without demands. To be scared as hell at times and just be scared as hell. It's called The Way because it is fluid, has no beginning, has no end, and we're on it together. No one left behind.

Ah, this blew "me" away ...

Thank you, one perfectly flawed being to another perfectly flawed being ... dreams or not, both already 'Buddha' and not.

[Rich]

Re: There is No-Self ... or is there?

Gunther, thanks for your 2 cents. Please stay and sit awhile.