My Sutra is Better than Your Sutra!!!

[Jinyo]

Re: My Sutra is Better than Your Sutra!!!

....and for the joke Jundo ! :lol:

[Rich]

Re: My Sutra is Better than Your Sutra!!!

My sutra

Get out of your head
Into your body mind
Then drop everything
A great one said
'Vast emptiness, nothing holy'

[ghop]

Re: My Sutra is Better than Your Sutra!!!

My sutra

Get out of your head
Into your body mind
Then drop everything
A great one said
'Vast emptiness, nothing holy'

deep deep bow

gassho
greg

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: My Sutra is Better than Your Sutra!!!

In particular, they do not know that in a special transmission outside the teachings, the teachings are never an impediment. Unless the special transmission outside the teachings can embrace the teachings, it is not the genuine special transmission outside the teachings.

Indeed, the Sutras have a profound meaning and purport. They point out the manifold obstacles to your seeing. Just because the seeing is not clear, one may end up disregarding the golden words of the Tathagata and fail to probe into the depth of those profound principles of the Sutras which are difficult to understand.

Though our lineage is not based on Sutras and Treatises, these do present a clear mirror. The teachings illuminate one's own nature, and the reflection of one's own nature illuminates the teachings. It is important for 'that' and 'this' to be clear.

I find this quote interesting!

There's no truth in Sutras in my opinion. Nothing holy in the Buddha's words.
Sometimes we find crap in Sutras. Sometimes the Sutras find crap in us! :shock:
When we find something in a Sutra that disturbs us, that we judge as wrong, maybe the Sutra, functioning as a mirror, is pointing out that we are disturbed, clinging to a view, stuck, that there is something obscuring the mirror. When our mind is in the state of being a clear mirror only, those passages may not be so disturbing. They are just what they are and there is not so much need to categorize them as crap?

Then again, in Samsara, a lot of what is holy is indeed holy crap! 8)

/Pontus

[Jundo]

Re: My Sutra is Better than Your Sutra!!!

When our mind is in the state of being a clear mirror only, those passages may not be so disturbing. They are just what they are and there is not so much need to categorize them as crap?

Then again, in Samsara, a lot of what is holy is indeed holy crap! 8)

There is nothing wrong with crap. Did I say that there is anything wrong with it? The Buddha is an old shit stick, as the Koan goes. When the mind is clear as a mirror, crap is perfectly beautiful crap.

The crappy passages in question are not disturbing, so much as not very profound ... even narrow, superstitious or silly.

To assert that every passage of every Sutra must be sacred, holy and profound is very much like saying that every verse of every chapter of every book of the New and Old Testaments much be sacred, holy and profound. While there is much in the Judeo-Christian books that is amazing and transforming (even if one is not part of those religions) ... and all can be seen as just wonderful myth making ... there is much in there that is superstitious, seemingly violent and bigoted, just plain silly or factually wrong (except, of course, to those who would argue that every single line is God's word, true and meaningful). The Buddhist Sutras, as literature, are not particularly better (though all based on the wonderful premises of Buddhist teachings). One just cannot say that their silly beliefs and legends are silly, but our parallel silly beliefs and legends are not ... because they are ours!

I think that one cannot discount any story in the Christian Bible as "hard to swallow" if one is then going to turn around and swallow everything in the Buddhist Bibles hook, line and sinker!

Gassho, J

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: My Sutra is Better than Your Sutra!!!

There is nothing wrong with crap. Did I say that there is anything wrong with it? The Buddha is an old shit stick, as the Koan goes. When the mind is clear as a mirror, crap is perfectly beautiful crap.

The crappy passages in question are not disturbing, so much as not very profound ... even narrow, superstitious or silly.

Thank you Jundo, I agree.

When there is nothing wrong with crap, nothing in the crappy passages that is disturbing, if crap is just crap, Buddha's crap, then I'm fine with crap! Nothing wrong with it! Perfect, beautiful crap! :mrgreen:

I haven't read many Sutras, but I sometimes find a certain passage in a Sutra quite disturbing. I appreciate these moments, because they point out that I'm stuck in a view of how things should be, or that I'm unconsciously wishing Sutras were more perfect sources of wisdom than they may be, not letting things be just as they are. The Sutras in this way reflect my own mind, showing me some of its obscurations. With the clear mirror mind instead reflecting the Sutra, the superstitious parts are in a sense as real as the realistic ones, the silly parts in a sense as profound as the profound ones. Or rather, there is not so much need for the text to make sense. With the discursive, analytical mind, some passages are just narrow, supersticious, silly. And there's nothing wrong with discursive, analytical mind in my opinion, as long as we don't mistake its conclusions for the truth or let it run the whole show.

And I have never understood why so many people read the Bible so literally. Maybe more Christians would benefit from sitting Zazen.

Gassho,
Pontus

[Kaishin]

Re: My Sutra is Better than Your Sutra!!!

Studying the Lotus... I think there just may be more verses of self-praise and descriptions of benefits arising from its study, than there are of actual content! Although the parables are rather substantive.

[Jundo]

Re: My Sutra is Better than Your Sutra!!!

Studying the Lotus... I think there just may be more verses of self-praise and descriptions of benefits arising from its study, than there are of actual content! Although the parables are rather substantive.

Hi Kaishin,

If reading the Lotus Sutra, you may be interested in looking through this small book too ...

Visions of Awakening Space and Time (Dogen and the Lotus Sutra) by Taigen Dan Leighton

This very thoughtful, informative, and highly original study makes a significant contribution to both Dogen and Lotus Sutra studies by showing how Dogen's Zen is rooted in Mahayana worldview, and also how the Lotus Sutra was a key resource for Japanese Zen. Leighton does an outstanding job of juxtaposing the seminal Lotus Sutra with the main writings of Dogen, along with other prominent thinkers in Zen and Chinese and Japanese Buddhism. He also sheds important light on contemporary applications and interpretations of Buddhist theory. ...

... This book is an exploration of Dogen's writings on space and time, especially as they relate to the central message of the Lotus Sutra . It demonstrates unity of practice and book learning in Japanese Zen and the unity of the Zen tradition and Buddhist teaching traditions such as Tendai and Kegon. Anyone interested in philosophical or literary aspects of Dogen's teachings and their relationship to Buddhist scriptures will find much to savor. Buddhist practitioners who wish to know how traditional scriptures can speak to contemporary concerns will find much to digest.

A couple of online essays on the same theme by the author, Soto Priest and Historian Taigen Leighton ...

The Lotus Sutra as a Source for Dogen's Discourse Style

http://www.ancientdragon.org/dharma/articles/lotus_sutra_and_dogen

Dogen's Appropriation of Lotus Sutra Ground and Space

http://www.ancientdragon.org/dharma/articles/dogens_appropriation_of_lotus_stura_ground_and_space

Gassho, J

[Kaishin]

Re: My Sutra is Better than Your Sutra!!!

Ah, great--thanks, Jundo!

[Seizan]

"Shall I compare thee to a summer day?" Indeed! Well chosen quote!

Lots to think about with almost every reply posted here, so that bears much reflection. I didn't see anything mentioned about the Middle Way here though. Beyond the Self: Teachings on the Middle Way really helped me think through some of these issues. I believe a lot of the sutras really do contain the Shakyamuni Buddha's words and meanings. However, one of his biggest points was not to get caught in the trappings, the words, the exercises etc. I think this is what is drawing me to Zen. The words and stories were tools, a means to an end, and the Middle Way (his true way to enlightenment) was like a highway that surpasses everything. It's not a middle ground between extremes, though extremes are recommended to be avoided, by a way to surpass the extremes in entirety. In the end, according to Buddha, there isn't even dharma! It's like the roadmap, but if you get too caught up in memorizing the map and travelling all willy-nilly to the places listed, you will miss the point entirely.

I think the sutras make great study and can teach us a lot about active living and guide Buddhists of every denomination on their path, but they are not the end-all-be-all, and Buddha says neither is himself! So is any sutra better than another sutra? Is any sutra the highest? This is an extreme view, and the middle way is the road past extreme views, as laid out by Buddha, but that has to be realized and practiced by your own higher conscience. Shall I compare thee to a summer day? Buddha says no!! Hehe..

At least, that's my current understanding, which evolves depending on the day!!!!

Gassho,
Dani