New Wanting to be Buddhist

[AlanLa]

I loved Sleeps original post about "Wanting to be a Buddhist" and am a bit sorry I didn't get to respond in time, because at this time he's retreated from posting, which is a serious concern, and by all means he is most welcome to join into what he has started. But in the mean time, I feel it important to continue in the spirit he started as best I can, which will in no way equal his intensions or intensity, so please accept this weak attempt.

My impressions were not with the content of what he said, but rather the various motivations that brought him here. We've all been at various states of despair. It's never about those points of despair, and this is SO VERY hard to learn. The dharma teaches us that it's always about the emptiness of that despair, but it took me minutes here to even remember to type that answer. It's so obvious, yet not.

My history is well-documented here if you look. By telling my HELLS I am finding my Buddha, present tense! And what I am learning is that the HELLS do not go away; I just learn to live with them better. And as I I hope I've pointed out, it hurts like HELL to reveal yourself, a HELL beyond words, a HELL beyond the original experience of HELL. To live it is one Hell, but to reveal it unearths a deeper HELL... gotta pause here.

Sleep well, Sleeps. Come back and share when you are ready.
We can't fix you; we can just listen.
You, the buddha within you, can fix you, and maybe we can help you find him/you.

[Ryumon]

Re: New Wanting to be Buddhist

Gassho.

[Jinyu]

Re: New Wanting to be Buddhist

Hi folks!

Thank you Alan for your post!
I couldn't even read the original message Greg wrote... but he deleted so much things I just hope he is Ok!

deep gassho,
Jinyu

[Koshin]

Re: New Wanting to be Buddhist

True indeed Alan....Gassho

[Rich]

Re: New Wanting to be Buddhist

My history is well-documented here if you look. By telling my HELLS I am finding my Buddha, present tense! And what I am learning is that the HELLS do not go away; I just learn to live with them better. And as I I hope I've pointed out, it hurts like HELL to reveal yourself, a HELL beyond words, a HELL beyond the original experience of HELL. To live it is one Hell, but to reveal it unearths a deeper HELL... gotta pause here.

Sleep well, Sleeps. Come back and share when you are ready.
We can't fix you; we can just listen.
You, the buddha within you, can fix you, and maybe we can help you find him/you.

Alan, thank you for your courage and inspiration and the truth.

[Hoyu]

Re: New Wanting to be Buddhist

Thanks Jigen. I too didn't get the chance to post this thought I had in response to what was going on over in the original post.

Life sucks(and is simotaniously beautiful!) and everyone has problems!! Perhaps a healthy start is to not have a problem with having problems?

Gassho,
Hoyu

[Marek]

Re: New Wanting to be Buddhist

Thank you Alan for this post.

We can't fix you; we can just listen.
You, the buddha within you, can fix you, and maybe we can help you find him/you.

_/_

[Dojin]

Re: New Wanting to be Buddhist

You are right Alan. our hells dont fade away! but we do learn how to live with them. after reading the stories of many people here i must admit that my own experience is not so bad. but i did go through some shit that made me scared in certain areas. but with time through this practice (or not i can not say, although i would like to think its this practice) i have learned to live with my horrors, scars and hells. they do not hold much sway over me anymore. i have found new problems, new behaviors i need to correct. and in many cases i slip and fall on my face! but i just get up and keep trying. and im very thankful to my wife for accepting me and tolerating me when i lose my temper and fight with her. its the next thing i must work on not indulging in anger.
but in the end it is only life and we are only human. we must know how to forgive others but also how to forgive ourselves.

Gassho, Dojin.

[AlanLa]

Re: New Wanting to be Buddhist

The point I was trying to make at the start here (and may have done so rather poorly) was that it is really hard to write a post like Sleep's original thread, at least it is for me. When I do it, I may start with the idea that I am going to shed some demons by doing so, but what I find is that it just stirs up those demons instead. The result is that what started out as tough and scary gets tougher and scarier before it eventually settles down into something more manageable. I don't know if this is what happened to Sleeps or not. But if it is, then I get it, and he'll be back when things settle for him a bit. I hope.

Edit: Of course I could be completely and totally wrong about about what was going on with Sleeps and his post, and this could all be self-indulgent presumption and projection. Right or wrong, pay it no mind.

[murasaki]

Re: New Wanting to be Buddhist

I have heard various forms of the view that things like despair and pain are what bring us to various spiritual systems and practices (the choice depends on our circumstances and other things), and that it's a natural instinct for humans to do that, almost like a need.

Nevertheless it's true that in Zen "It's not about that" as you said, Alan, and it really is jarring to learn that "you're not going to get the balance/peace/calm/relief you were looking for and now that you're here you'd better stop having that as a goal because we don't have goals here." It is hard to learn and quite unexpected because most other traditions take on the principal role of comforting and assuring...maybe that's why none of them worked for me, because it's all false comfort and after a while, you find there's almost no other point to it and you are back where you started.

For me it was Chet that threw the cold water in my face about that, and he was a real hardass and it caused me to even leave Treeleaf for a while, but now I am grateful to him because I'm not sure what other way might have shown me. Well, there might have been and I would have preferred it happening differently, but that's how it went down and it's all good now.

On the other hand, I heard a talk from Norman Fischer where he said that we all come to Zen looking for some kind of comfort, calm, peace of mind and whatnot, and even though that's not supplied by Zen what's important is that it brought us here so it's all fine in the end -- get here however, but just get here. That made me feel like I am not alone in having sought those things (and there's proof that it's a natural human instinct). So that's what kind of help me come back...I forgave myself for having a goal that isn't all that important and should be looked at as more of a "side effect" and that there are other way to address pain and despair. Not that I'm an expert at that now, but here/not here I am.


Gasho
Julia

[Jundo]

Re: New Wanting to be Buddhist

Hi Julia,

I feel that what you say here is not really the Whole Picture ...

Nevertheless it's true that in Zen "It's not about that" as you said, Alan, and it really is jarring to learn that "you're not going to get the balance/peace/calm/relief you were looking for and now that you're here you'd better stop having that as a goal because we don't have goals here."

...

... I heard a talk from Norman Fischer where he said that we all come to Zen looking for some kind of comfort, calm, peace of mind and whatnot, and even though that's not supplied by Zen what's important is that it brought us here so it's all fine in the end ...

Well, that's right. Zen will not provide perpetual balance/peace/calm/relief because this life and world are sometimes hard, terrible ... chaotic, unbalanced, unsatisfying, violent, ugly. It is the the turbulent circumstance outside us and our disturbed inner reaction (so intimately connected that there really is no "inner" apart from "outer"). Zen practice will not change any of that. Like the old country song, "I beg your pardon, I never promised you a rose garden." 8)

Now, that being said ... we sit in such stillness amid the turmoil, "going with the flowing" at the eye of the storm, allowing at the heart of the 'unsatisfying', wholeness in a world of a million broken pieces .... without goals and demands amid a demanding, hussle-bussle life ... experiencing 'hells' as dreams though painful and burning hot ...

... that there is found a Timeless Balance/Peace/Calm/Relief that is the Heart of Lived-Practice.

One must see the Beauty and Balance of the Whole Rose Garden, complete with both blossoms and thorns, flowers and weeds, sunshine and rain.

Gassho, J

I could promise you the moon ...

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[Dojin]

Re: New Wanting to be Buddhist

For Me Zen was an escape at first. it was a way to overcome my own problems. to find that peace of mind and direction in life. at first it worked perfectly, i was happy calm and lived my life feeling that i have finally found some peace of mind and serenity. i was young and inexperienced then, but as i grew older and had to face life's challenges it became increasingly hard to keep the peace. there were a lot of things that happened i wont go in to details because each and everyone has had experiences of things like that, it is inevitable. with time i became stressed and confused, how is it that life is so hard even with my zen practice?! i should be calm and happy like a hindu cow! people expected me to be like that since it was their own mental idea of what a buddhists and zen practitioner should be... i was really lost but kept sitting felt it did no good at all, no harm either but not much good came of it. with time though i understood 1 simple thing. zen will not make me happy, peaceful, calm, at one, at two, or even at three with anything. and it is ALL RIGHT!!! with that realization i finally understood that all the words and preconceptions are meaningless. i can live with whatever happens and feel the way it is natural for me to feel. and i might hate it, want to run away from it, wish with all my heart that it wasnt so. but i could not change it. i can just let it be and live my life as best i can, not doing harm as much i can and being a good person. all the while knowing i will fail miserably! and when i do just get back up and keep on living and trying.

sorry for the long rant, i think it was part of a realization that i had this realization during the writing.

Gassho, Dojin (deep bows to all).

[murasaki]

Re: New Wanting to be Buddhist

One must see the Beauty and Balance of the Whole Rose Garden, complete with both blossoms and thorns, flowers and weeds, sunshine and rain.

Good to point that out...acceptance is something I am not terribly adept with yet. (But I guess that's ok! :lol: )

By the way, I swear I remember seeing that original broadcast when I was a tiny tot playing in the living room while grandparents watched TV, it's funny you posted that and surprising my brain can still dig that deep :shock:

[Jundo]

Re: New Wanting to be Buddhist

One must see the Beauty and Balance of the Whole Rose Garden, complete with both blossoms and thorns, flowers and weeds, sunshine and rain.

Good to point that out...acceptance is something I am not terribly adept with yet. (But I guess that's ok! :lol: )

Today's Sit-a-Long is connected to all this. It is called, "WHAT's NEXT?" ....

Almost each week, someone asks me, "What comes next in my practice? How do I deepen it? What should I do now? What book should I read with all the secrets? I feel like something is still missing and that I must do more."

But how can I respond to such a question when the very heart of this Path is learning to live and be this life radically FREE OF THE NEED FOR 'WHAT'S NEXT, LIBERATED OF SOMETHING MORE THAT NEED BE DONE, FULFILLED OF 'ANYTHING MISSING'!

....

And, though there is "nothing ever missing or in need of adding and doing" ... that does not mean that there are not things to lose, gain or do! Learning to be free of the "need for change" is a REVOLUTIONARY CHANGE ... a change helped along by things we need to do and change, such as learning to be less driven by GREED, ANGER and IGNORANCE! In this crazy-sane practice, we master how to live 'without need for change' by changing some things about us ... including the view that anything is ever in need of change ... thus bringing about an EARTHSHAKING CHANGE in how life is encountered! Oh, a CRAZY-SANE CATCH-22!

However, the fundamental Heart of this Path must remain learning to be so intimately At Home, At One with life ... that there is no need for "what's next" ... no hole to fill as "something missing". Our way to do so is simply to sit Shikantaza, dropping all thought and desire for "what's next" ... all while welcoming and embracing whatever comes next.

more here ...

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4745&p=70989#p70989

Gassho, J

[will]

Re: New Wanting to be Buddhist

You'd be surprised how much crap suddenly disappears. Poof. Nothing like a balanced posture, and questioning "What is it?"

Most of the time, when I am angry, impulsive, ranting, going on and on, my posture is crap, my eyes are focused, tense and so on. Causing back pain, neck pain and so on. Zazen is open, dropping likes and dislikes. It's not what you think it is. Study the self, drink water, and maintain your posture. Not much to say. We all have our little issues.

What is it that comes thus?

Gassho

W