Csíkszentmihályi - Flow

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  • Omoi Otoshi
    Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 801

    Csíkszentmihályi - Flow

    Does anyone know anything about this guy? It seems like he spent most of his career doing research about something he calls "flow". Not exactly Zen, but there are some ideas that sound very familiar!

    Gassho,
    Pontus

    From Wikipedia:
    "In his seminal work, Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience, Csíkszentmihályi outlines his theory that people are most happy when they are in a state of flow— a state of concentration or complete absorption with the activity at hand and the situation. It is a state in which people are so involved in an activity that nothing else seems to matter (Csikszentmihalyi,1990). The idea of flow is identical to the feeling of being in the zone or in the groove. The flow state is an optimal state of intrinsic motivation, where the person is fully immersed in what he or she is doing. This is a feeling everyone has at times, characterized by a feeling of great absorption, engagement, fulfillment, and skill—and during which temporal concerns (time, food, ego-self, etc.) are typically ignored.

    In an interview with Wired magazine, Csíkszentmihályi described flow as "being completely involved in an activity for its own sake. The ego falls away. Time flies. Every action, movement, and thought follows inevitably from the previous one, like playing jazz. Your whole being is involved, and you're using your skills to the utmost."

    To achieve a flow state, a balance must be struck between the challenge of the task and the skill of the performer. If the task is too easy or too difficult, flow cannot occur. Both skill level and challenge level must be matched and high; if skill and challenge are low and matched, then apathy results.

    The flow state also implies a kind of focused attention, and indeed, it has been noted that mindfulness, meditation, yoga, the Alexander Technique, and martial arts seem to improve a person's capacity for flow. Among other benefits, all of these activities train and improve attention.

    In short, flow could be described as a state where attention, motivation, and the situation meet, resulting in a kind of productive harmony or feedback."
    In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
    you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
    now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
    the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day
  • Dosho
    Member
    • Jun 2008
    • 5784

    #2
    Re: Csíkszentmihályi - Flow

    Pontus,

    I studied him in college along with a fellow named Howard Gardner. I also took a class in grad school with Edward Deci where Csíkszentmihályi's theories were discussed and Deci writes extensively about intrinsic motivation.

    Now, I can't remember a lot of specifics (another lifetime as a prospective academic), but suffice it to say I can understand where you would make the connection. I am quite certain reading his works and those of the other two fellows I mentioned ultimately led me here.

    So, I will say thank you to all three.

    Gassho,
    Dosho

    Comment

    • Marek
      Member
      • Jan 2012
      • 161

      #3
      Re: Csíkszentmihályi - Flow

      Hi Pontus,

      I've read his book long time ago and I agree with you about similarities but on the other hand it was strange for me that He actually didn't make any reference to Zen.I don't remember did He even mention about any kind of meditation.

      I mean He didn't have to do such references but similarities seems to be obvious.
      Gassho,
      Marek

      Comment

      • Ryumon
        Member
        • Apr 2007
        • 1815

        #4
        Re: Csíkszentmihályi - Flow

        It's a brilliant book. I read it about 20 years ago. It's not about meditation, but rather the absorption we have when we are doing something so intensely that nothing can distract. It points out that the "flow" state is something that can be cultivated.
        I know nothing.

        Comment

        • Omoi Otoshi
          Member
          • Dec 2010
          • 801

          #5
          Re: Csíkszentmihályi - Flow

          Thanks for the replies guys!

          I do wonder if he thinks he really invented the wheel or if he just doesn't want to be open with the fact that he's getting cred for something that was already well known a couple of thousand years ago! :wink:

          It would be interesting to read his book, just to get a completely different perspective on 'being in the flow'!

          Gassho,
          Pontus
          In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
          you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
          now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
          the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

          Comment

          • SoR
            Member
            • Dec 2011
            • 103

            #6
            Re: Csíkszentmihályi - Flow

            If I recall correctly, his work was discussed in "the Art of Happiness at Work"

            Comment

            • will
              Member
              • Jun 2007
              • 2331

              #7
              Re: Csíkszentmihályi - Flow

              To achieve a flow state, a balance must be struck between the challenge of the task and the skill of the performer. If the task is too easy or too difficult, flow cannot occur. Both skill level and challenge level must be matched and high; if skill and challenge are low and matched, then apathy results.
              This is where I disagree. There is a thousand ways to place a flower.

              Or strum a chord.

              Gassho

              W
              [size=85:z6oilzbt]
              To save all sentient beings, though beings are numberless.
              To penetrate reality, though reality is boundless.
              To transform all delusion, though delusions are immeasurable.
              To attain the enlightened way, a way non-attainable.
              [/size:z6oilzbt]

              Comment

              • Rich
                Member
                • Apr 2009
                • 2615

                #8
                Re: Csíkszentmihályi - Flow

                When athletes are in the zone or in the flow, I think there are actual chemical changes in the brain such as the release of endorphins which produce heightened. Sensory awareness. This state of action can seem close to perfection in the context of the sport. From a zen perspective it would be like seeing reality and acting correctly.

                Who is that masked man? Or woman?
                _/_
                Rich
                MUHYO
                無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

                https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

                Comment

                • Amelia
                  Member
                  • Jan 2010
                  • 4980

                  #9
                  Re: Csíkszentmihályi - Flow

                  Originally posted by Rich
                  When athletes are in the zone or in the flow, I think there are actual chemical changes in the brain such as the release of endorphins which produce heightened. Sensory awareness...
                  This is interesting because I get an heightened sense of awareness from watching videos that are intended to induce ASMR, which I experience. Some have wondered if the tingling of the head that one experiences with ASMR is endorphin release.
                  求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
                  I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

                  Comment

                  • will
                    Member
                    • Jun 2007
                    • 2331

                    #10
                    Re: Csíkszentmihályi - Flow

                    Let me expand on my post from this morning. Whether apathy arises or not, we sit with. Part of our practice is doing things we don't want to do, and thus hopefully finding enjoyment in doing them. Why do those monks scrub the floor everyday, day in and day out? So, we are not really looking for a state of flow, a challenge, or less of a challenge. We do what we do, when we do what we do, or when we have to or should.

                    So, placing a flower, is neither a challenge, nor less of a challenge, it's perfectly what it is. Continue.



                    Gassho

                    W
                    [size=85:z6oilzbt]
                    To save all sentient beings, though beings are numberless.
                    To penetrate reality, though reality is boundless.
                    To transform all delusion, though delusions are immeasurable.
                    To attain the enlightened way, a way non-attainable.
                    [/size:z6oilzbt]

                    Comment

                    • Omoi Otoshi
                      Member
                      • Dec 2010
                      • 801

                      #11
                      Csíkszentmihályi - Flow

                      Yes, Will, I agree.
                      And I don't agree that you need a goal. In my experience, the activity is enough, no goal needed.

                      Gassho,
                      Pontus
                      In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
                      you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
                      now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
                      the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

                      Comment

                      • Ryumon
                        Member
                        • Apr 2007
                        • 1815

                        #12
                        Re: Csíkszentmihályi - Flow

                        Originally posted by Omoi Otoshi
                        Thanks for the replies guys!

                        I do wonder if he thinks he really invented the wheel or if he just doesn't want to be open with the fact that he's getting cred for something that was already well known a couple of thousand years ago! :wink:
                        I think his was the first scientific examination of this phenomenon. He doesn't claim to invent anything; this isn't a self-help book but a scientific book (though written for laypeople).
                        I know nothing.

                        Comment

                        • Omoi Otoshi
                          Member
                          • Dec 2010
                          • 801

                          #13
                          Csíkszentmihályi - Flow

                          But if it's a scientific investigation of something that has been well explored in Zen and other traditions, then you'd expect some investigation of and references to these traditions!

                          But I'm tempted to read this book just to get a researcher and psychologist's view on this state/sensation of flow and its relationship to happiness!

                          Thank,
                          Pontus
                          In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
                          you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
                          now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
                          the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

                          Comment

                          • Ryumon
                            Member
                            • Apr 2007
                            • 1815

                            #14
                            Re: Csíkszentmihályi - Flow

                            Originally posted by Omoi Otoshi
                            But if it's a scientific investigation of something that has been well explored in Zen and other traditions, then you'd expect some investigation of and references to these traditions!

                            But I'm tempted to read this book just to get a researcher and psychologist's view on this state/sensation of flow and its relationship to happiness!

                            Thank,
                            Pontus
                            Unfortunately, I don't have the book any more to be able to look at at and tell you what's in it. Coincidentally, my son showed me a list of books he was interested in a few months ago, and that was one of them, so I sent it to him.

                            Has the concept of flow - when doing things, not when sitting - been explored in Zen? There is certainly a tradition of "mindfulness" in other Buddhist schools, which comes close to what he writes about, but I recall him coming at it from the other way, the involuntary flow state that arises when we do something that interests us.

                            Also, this is an old book - relatively. It's at least 20 years old, and it was groundbreaking at the time. These were the "pre-neuroscience" days, pre-MRI and fMRI. His book seems to have been published in 1990, as best I can tell, but it was based on research done long before that, according to the Wikipedia article.

                            I have to admit, I am often in a flow state when I write. I don't seek it out, but it just happens naturally. I've never attempted to cultivate it, and I'm not sure it's necessarily useful to do so. Perhaps what is important is to simply let it happen and let things go on their own from there.
                            I know nothing.

                            Comment

                            • Omoi Otoshi
                              Member
                              • Dec 2010
                              • 801

                              #15
                              Re: Csíkszentmihályi - Flow

                              I haven't read any of his work, so I really shouldn't comment!

                              But it seems to me that that he is describing an experience of complete suchness or even light samadhi, in which there is merging of awareness and activity, the mind is completely undistracted by discursive thoughts, ego/self-consciousness is falling away, you are free of negativity and anxiety, there is complete control, you act with full confidence, adapt without thinking, carry out tasks without effort, the body and mind functioning naturally, as one etc. That is not all of Zen, that would be to diminish Zen buddhism, but different schools of religion, philosophy and meditation have explored these aspects of flow pretty extensively, but in different terms, wouldn't you agree?

                              Or maybe I'm just reading far too much into this concept of flow! :roll:
                              That happens easily! :lol:

                              Gassho,
                              Pontus
                              In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
                              you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
                              now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
                              the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

                              Comment

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