The appeal of Zen in the West over other forms of Buddhism

[Jinyu]

Re: The appeal of Zen in the West over other forms of Buddhism

... but it becomes the old question of what traditions to keep, what to change, without "throwing the Baby Buddha out with the ritual bathwater" ...

Oh no... look behind you ... the never ending question! :mrgreen:

Thank you all for this thread pointing to the place of Zen in the Wast, the East, ... sometimes a small radical group, at other times the major philosophical school but not really practiced, ... always moving, always new in each context!
Lets make it something great in our contextS :wink:

deep deep gassho,
Jinyu

[Kaishin]

Re: The appeal of Zen in the West over other forms of Buddhism

It is only in the West, and for a very few years, that lay people have delved into Zazen and other practices of meditation,

Why do you think that is? I mean, 15 minutes a day (your recommended zazen time for most people) isn't much, and everyone has a patch of ground beneath them for sitting. Is it just because zazen/meditation was simply not advertised as a lay practice in the East? And if not, why not given the preceding?

Or perhaps the stressed-out West is simply more attracted to religious practices involving meditation as an antidote?

[Foursquare]

Re: The appeal of Zen in the West over other forms of Buddhism

Hi there - I got quite confused when I began to explore Buddism because I didn't really grasp the difference between convert buddhism
and traditional practices. I think it takes quite a bit of work/guidance to compare and contrast (and experience different flavours as Jundo
expresses it) to find what suits.

I'm not sure we in the West are quite there with this process - there seems to be a lot of discussion/disagreement between convert strands/schools.
At least with Soto Zen I feel there is clarity to the practice and that zazen is a firm anchor.

I do feel though it's important to take on the 'whole deal' (another of Jundo's expressions) - a lot of people in the West seem to take mindful meditation
on its own as an expression of Buddhism - and want to throw out - or not even bother - with the teachings.

Anyway - my thoughts lack clarity - as I'm new to all this.

Gassho

Willow

(My emphasis in bold. Foursquare)

I quite agree, Willow. If one is to take on Zen then I believe one must take on all of it including Zen's Buddhist roots. Meditation as a practice is only one element of the whole, albeit a basic, central, and essential element, but the Dharma is also basic, central, and essential, at least to my mind. For me to be a Zen practitioner, ipso facto I must be a practising Buddhist, too.

[Jundo]

Re: The appeal of Zen in the West over other forms of Buddhism

I quite agree, Willow. If one is to take on Zen then I believe one must take on all of it including Zen's Buddhist roots. Meditation as a practice is only one element of the whole, albeit a basic, central, and essential element, but the Dharma is also basic, central, and essential, at least to my mind. For me to be a Zen practitioner, ipso facto I must be a practising Buddhist, too.

Our Soto-Zenny perspective on this makes no sense ... and every sense.

Seated Zazen is the one and only practice needed, the only place to be in all time and space, the one thing to do. Nothing more, no other place to go, nothing more to study. Nothing in need of chanting, no books in need of cracking.

That being said, rising from the sitting cushion ... all of life is also "Zazen" in its wider meaning when pierced as such ... from chanting or lighting incense in a temple, to changing dirty diapers or buying bread in the grocery. Each and all, the one and only practice needed, the only place to be in all time and space, the one thing to do. Nothing more, no other place to go, nothing more to study.

And that being said ... it is important for Zen folks to study a bit of the Buddhist Teachings, the Sutras and writings of great Masters ... in order to master why and how all that is so.

All of the above, At Once As One. If one fails in one's Practice to experience how all of the above if True At Once As One ... and that Zazen is always complete and never lacking ... then something is lacking! :shock:

Wonderful How That Works!

Gassho, J

[Foursquare]

Re: The appeal of Zen in the West over other forms of Buddhism

Interesting. All right, then. I don't pretend to be expert but it poses more questions for me. Can Zen including the practice of zazen be divorced or detached from the Dharma and its other roots in Buddhism? And if it can, is it still Zen?

[Jundo]

Re: The appeal of Zen in the West over other forms of Buddhism

Interesting. All right, then. I don't pretend to be expert but it poses more questions for me. Can Zen including the practice of zazen be divorced or detached from the Dharma and its other roots in Buddhism? And if it can, is it still Zen?

Short answer:

One can do away with some things, a certain cut of robe, a ceremony or even all ceremonies, incense and bells, a way to do this or that ... some tangential or minor ideas, practices and teachings ...

... but Zen and Zazen cannot be removed from rootedness in certain Teachings (Dharma) at the Heart of Buddhism ... Non-self, Impermanence, the causes and workings of Dukkha, Emptiness, living in balance and harmlessness by the Precepts, the poisons of greed anger and ignorance and the rest of the "mind theatre", perhaps "dependent origination" and the like, freedom from excess desire and attachments, Non-attaining, Non-thinking and so much more (all interrelated, by the way). These give form and direction to Zazen, without which it is unformed and aimless clay ... a fluffy tranquilizer at best, chaos at worst.

So, no, Zen Practice cannot be removed from those.

Yet, those are not enough without realization in Zazen, on the Zafu and off.

And in a moment of Zazen, no book study or anything else but Zazen is needed.

... All True As One At Once.

Gassho, Jundo

[JohnsonCM]

Re: The appeal of Zen in the West over other forms of Buddhism

On a cold winter night, a big snow storm hit the city and the temple where Dan Xia served as a Monk got snowed in. Cut off from outside traffic, the coal delivery man could not get to the Zen Monastery. Soon it ran out of heating fuel after a few days and everybody was shivering in the cold. The monks could not even cook their meals.
Dan Xia began to remove the wooden Buddha Statues from the display and put them into the fireplace.
"What are you doing?" the monks were shocked to see that the holy Buddha Statues were being burnt inside the fire place. "You are burning our holy religious artifacts! You are insulting the Buddha!"
"Are these statues alive and do they have any Buddha nature?" asked Master Dan Xia.
"Of course not," replied the monks. "They are made of wood. They cannot have Buddha Nature."
"OK. Then they are just pieces of firewood and therefore can be used as heating fuel," said Master Dan Xia. "Can you pass me another piece of firewood please? I need some warmth."
The next day, the snow storm had gone and Dan Xia went into town and brought back some replacement Buddha Statues. After putting them on the displays, he began to kneel down and burn incense sticks to them.
"Are you worshiping firewood?" ask the monks who are confused for what he was doing.
"No. I am treating these statues as holy artifacts and am honouring the Buddha." replied Dan Xia.

To me, this illustrates many things, but one thing in particular is that we should not do things, or become attached to things, trappings, statues, ritual, etc because they are traditional or historical. Many of the things that go along with any religion are there because of cultural difference. Look at Christianity and Catholicism, and the difference in garb between the Jesuits and say Eastern European Orthidoxy. These things are there, but they are of no use unless they further our understanding of the Way and our progression towards the goaless goal of realization.

That's only my two cents, though.

[Koshin]

Re: The appeal of Zen in the West over other forms of Buddhism

It is mostly Western Zen Buddhism that has sought to pear it down, simplify to "sitting alone", remove the old ways and "funny hats". In fact, Taigu and I are also about getting to the Simple, Clear Heart of Practice ... but it becomes the old question of what traditions to keep, what to change, without "throwing the Baby Buddha out with the ritual bathwater" ...

I totally agree with you Jundo, also can not forget traditions like Zazen in the tub with the ceremonial hat :wink:



Thank you for this teaching....have a great day you all

Attached files

[JohnsonCM]

Re: The appeal of Zen in the West over other forms of Buddhism

Pfffft!

That's not a hat. Obviously that's a samadhi induced halo of Omni-Present-interdimensional-super-galactic-oneness!

Geeez. Thought everyone knew that.

:mrgreen:

[Koshin]

Re: The appeal of Zen in the West over other forms of Buddhism

:mrgreen:

[Hoyu]

Re: The appeal of Zen in the West over other forms of Buddhism

Pfffft!

That's not a hat. Obviously that's a samadhi induced halo of Omni-Present-interdimensional-super-galactic-oneness!

Geeez. Thought everyone knew that.

:mrgreen:

:lol:
Oh that's great!
_/_

[Jinyo]

Re: The appeal of Zen in the West over other forms of Buddhism

best laugh today - wonderful :lol: :lol:

Gassho

Willow

[Foursquare]

Re: The appeal of Zen in the West over other forms of Buddhism

Interesting. All right, then. I don't pretend to be expert but it poses more questions for me. Can Zen including the practice of zazen be divorced or detached from the Dharma and its other roots in Buddhism? And if it can, is it still Zen?

Short answer:

One can do away with some things, a certain cut of robe, a ceremony or even all ceremonies, incense and bells, a way to do this or that ... some tangential or minor ideas, practices and teachings ...

... but Zen and Zazen cannot be removed from rootedness in certain Teachings (Dharma) at the Heart of Buddhism ... Non-self, Impermanence, the causes and workings of Dukkha, Emptiness, living in balance and harmlessness by the Precepts, the poisons of greed anger and ignorance and the rest of the "mind theatre", perhaps "dependent origination" and the like, freedom from excess desire and attachments, Non-attaining, Non-thinking and so much more (all interrelated, by the way). These give form and direction to Zazen, without which it is unformed and aimless clay ... a fluffy tranquilizer at best, chaos at worst.

So, no, Zen Practice cannot be removed from those.

Yet, those are not enough without realization in Zazen, on the Zafu and off.

And in a moment of Zazen, no book study or anything else but Zazen is needed.

... All True As One At Once.

Gassho, Jundo

Good answer: clear and comprehensive. That clears the matter up for me. Cheers.

[Jundo]

Re: The appeal of Zen in the West over other forms of Buddhism

I think Pure Land chanting Buddhism is the largest Buddhist group but Zen appeals to me in the fact it cuts through the chafe and grows straight for the wheat ...

Hi Chugai,

Pure Land sects (there are more than one) are certainly the largest by number of parishioners in Japan ... and perhaps among immigrant Chinese and Japanese families to the Americas and Europe. What is more, in China and Vietnam (not, however, in Japan) Pure Land and Zen are all mixed together ... so it is almost impossible to say what is a "Pure Land" temple/priest/practitioner or "Zen" temple/priest/practitioner.

viewtopic.php?p=65263#p65263

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

Re: The appeal of Zen in the West over other forms of Buddhism

Hi Sensei --- thank you, I had a partner in the seventies that chanted, she was Shin -- I remember her telling me about how large they were in and out of Asia --

She had a scroll and and an altar and i can't remember what else -- I learned some of the chanting then ( I loved her) but only remember Nom Yo Ho Ren Ge Kyo now --

Ah, just a footnote ...

She is likely not a Jodo/Shin/Pure Land Buddhist at all, but a Nichiren Buddhist (my wife's family are Nichiren Buddhists). Nichiren Buddhism is a school of Buddhism which developed in Japan (and not found in China) hundreds of years ago centered on the power of the Lotus Sutra ... on the power of faith and recital even in just the name of the Lotus Sutra. Thus, they recite "Nam-myoho-renge-kyo" (Hail the Wonderful Law of the Lotus Flower Sutra). Nichiren Buddhism is most well know in the West through the organization Soka Gakkai/SGI (although Soka Gakkai had a falling out with the mainstream Nichiren temples in Japan a few years ago).

The Jodo or Jodo Shin (Pure Land) schools worship or rely upon Amida Buddha, and thus chant "Namu Amida Butsu" (or its equivalent in Chinese etc., Homage to Amida, Buddha of Infinite Light).

End of footnote. 8)

Gassho, J