Do you have Zen dreams?

[will]

Satipatthana Sutra

http://www.saigon.com/~hoasen/4foundat.htm

What I base part of my practice on.

Gassho Will

[will]

Hi Harry

Avoidance of 'attachment to thought', or of attachment to anything else for that matter, is just dualistic thought again. Rejecting one type of experience for another concept of experience (i.e. idealized 'the moment') is also classic intellectual dualism. The moment is just the moment regardless of what it seems to consist of, regardless of its quality: attempting to manipulate the moment is not what we are advised to not-do in Zazen as far as I understand it.

Yes. It's quite interesting. We have thoughts. We have avoidence to thoughts. In one sense we could have an opinion about not having an opinion Mindfulness, from my exoerience and understanding, is to notice everything that is happening for us right now; however, not from a view point of this is happening to "me" but from the fact of just noticing (noticing the knower)

The first of the four foundations of mindfulness is mindfulness of the body, perceptions and senses. Once this is established, we continue to be mindful of our reactivity, mental states, and the mind. This of course is not done with any goal in mind but just noticing. Right now my practice is mindfulness of the body, peceptions and senses through which I have glimpse the other 3. Once all four are established than there is Shikantaza (just sitting) where we are mindful of every experience that is arising at every moment. This is being before thinking. What teachers have been teaching students for thousands of years.

Communism and fascism was/is wary of intellectuals too (as are certain, large Western democracies). Intellectuals like Nishijima Roshi and Dogen probably would not have been tolerated at many times and places in world history... or maybe they would have been clever enough to get by. I'm not saying they are intellectuals exclusively of course.

My statement was just the fact that we should be mindful. From no right or wrong viewpoint, experiences just arise. I guess I was trying to say that using only your intellect (thinking and mind) is not our practice. There is also the intellect of the body, senses and perceptions. If one is not mindful of intellect or mindful of non-intellect, then one is not mindful. It does not mean that we don't have it or can't use it.

The moment is just the moment regardless of what it seems to consist of, regardless of its quality:

Agreed. However, I think we should state, our practice is also to learn to be mindful of that which is arising. If we aren't aware of what is going on "or" aren't aware that we aren't aware, then we have lost the way and suffering continues without any understanding.

attempting to manipulate the moment is not what we are advised to not-do in Zazen as far as I understand it.

Don't quite understand what you mean here.

so I'm really talking about classic academic type intelligence of the type that is promoted by an education such as Dogen Zenji was said to have received; the sort that enabled him to think and write like he did.

Yes. Of course we should not discard intelligence. However, we must know that academic intelligence also gave us the capability to make the Atom bomb, and nuclear missiles.

People definitely have various Educations and knowledges that can be beneficial for a society and world as long as it is done mindfully

However, how is a prolonged life from machines in a world of over population beneficial? On the othe hand, how can we consider not saving someone if we have the technology? That part is grey. Trust our heart and use our sponteneaity of compassion and intellect that develops through our practice.

Glad we can talk. I've learned a lot

Gassho Will

[will]

Mindfulness has nothing to do with Zazen as explained by Dogen. Mindfulness is discriminatiory thinking/ percieving rooted in the delusion that there is something to gain other than what is just happening right here, right now.

Then, how do you tell that to someone who can't sit still for 5 minutes. Someone who is constantly delluded by thoughts, feelings, and focused attention? The Buddha wrote the Satipatthana sutra for those who are not able to just sit and be mindful. Some can do it and some need to start with small steps.

I don't doubt that it has been taught for thousands of years, but it doesn't seem to be the Buddha-Dharma of the Zen patriarchs... just to avoid any confusion... or maybe it was and Dogen was mistaken?

Dogen is not mistaken. Was Dogen not talking about Shikantaza? Was he not talking about penetrating to the heart of experience? When Shikintaza is established, that is when practice begins. However, some need a little more to get there.

This is just an example of how skillful means is put to use. You can say "well, that person cannot just sit, so they can't do our practice." Or, you can give that person a practice to do that will help them establish mindfulness which will lead to Shikantaza ie. the Satipatthana Sutra.

May all being be happy, May they be peaceful, May they be Free.


Gassho Will

[will]

No matter where you are Harry, you are right where you are. That includes the breath. It is always right here. We are always breathing. It doesn't mean focus on it. It means to use it as a touch stone to become mindful of the rest of our experience.

but that's got nothing to do with shikantaza, *it doesn't matter*... it'll just be nervey, twitchy shikanataza for a while which is not better or worse than non-nervey shikanataza. There's really no doing it right or wrong I think, at least looking at it like that is of no use whatsoever... and I am someone who was convinced I was doing it wrong for months, and I really pissed myself off (and I'm still convinced of this at times).

Yes. There is no wrong Shikintaza. You are where ever you are. What's happening is whatever is happening. Eventually though, doing Shikintaza , you will become aware of your breath and the feeling of your feet and your reactivity and your states of mind and your mind. Reality will eventually knock you on the head. You can follow Dogen's path and Realize you are a Buddha. Of course that's your choice. It's your path. I also follow Dogen's teachings.

Also, I've tried all the other stuff: mindfullnes of breathing, mantra, blah blah blah... its all well and good when its 'working' and giving our big buddhist ego a buzz,

Mindfulness is not to be confused with Mantra or any other focusing practice. It is just being open and noticing. It is noticing the buzz without attachment.

.BTW, look at Dogen's childhood details: you think he was a cheery, uncomplicated sort of a youth?). I'm not convinced that barking up those trees is a good means to some shikantaza end. But that's just me.

Are we sure Dogen did not practice something of the sort before gaining deeper insight? He had studied with many teachers. I don't know.

The Buddha himself had to learn some amount of concentration before being able to sit still and notice what is going on.

but its just as much a pain in the ass as shikanataza when you inevitably just start being yourself a minute after you start doing it (which is a pretty f**cked-up 'myself' if you're like me and a good majority of the rest of the human race..

That's why I remind myself sometimes, when things get crazy, to just notice what's going on. And when we "start being ourselves" as you say, we see how distracted that self is. We see how we keep wandering off into thought etc...

I sat and annoyed or distracted myself with all that stuff for months, then I hit Zen and sat and annoyed myself with shikantaza, then some stuff that Dogen, Nishijima, Jundo said started to filter into my big thick skull and I started to see that I was just a f**k-up and that that's no real crime, and then sitting started to be just sitting and I started to be a f**ck-up just sitting and then that was that and I'm not claiming its any big deal.

Yes. Practice is good for showing us how "f**k-up we are." That's the point. There is nothng wrong with that.

But, all the other messing around is just trying to get away from the fact that we think we are hopeless, non-buddha f**k-ups when really, if we stop being so unreasonable to ourselves, we can just give ourselves a break and just be f**k-ups just sitting with no further f**king up... things might happen, often they seem not to. There may not be any quantifying it or observable results.

How can you get away from reality.

A question: have you tried 'just sitting' for a time daily, no method or anything, for a period of a couple of weeks or a month?

Yes and I do now. Mindfulness is just a way to show you how you cause yourself all this trouble. When I say mindfulness, that does not mean "I will sit here and feel the breath" There is no attachment. If you become attached to any part of your practice then your practice is lost.

Your experience arises every moment. In our practice we are penetrating each experience without attachment. That means we just notice our thoughts, notice our focusing of attention. Notice when we become delighted by feelings. Notice how we think we are not good enough or better than everyone else. We notice how we cause trouble for ourselves and others. Notice our goals etc. and eventually notice that there is no one who is noticing.

Anyway, I think we'll stop it there. We are both on the same path. May you be happy.

Gassho Will

[Jundo]

Okay, enough talk about what is "Zazen". Remember about Elephants and Real Dragons.

Let's just sit Zazen.

Gassho, Jundo

[will]

Jundo

Okay, enough talk about what is "Zazen"

I already said that.

Gassho

[Jundo]

Hi,

I want to briefly comment without falling further into the trap of elephants and dragons.

Will wrote:

Mindfulness, from my exoerience and understanding, is to notice everything that is happening for us right now; however, not from a view point of this is happening to "me" but from the fact of just noticing (noticing the knower)

That is one form of mindfulness (this one is a kind of open awareness), and there are many other flavors too.

The first of the four foundations of mindfulness is mindfulness of the body, perceptions and senses. Once this is established, we continue to be mindful of our reactivity, mental states, and the mind. This of course is not done with any goal in mind but just noticing. Right now my practice is mindfulness of the body, peceptions and senses through which I have glimpse the other 3. Once all four are established than there is Shikantaza (just sitting) where we are mindful of every experience that is arising at every moment. This is being before thinking. What teachers have been teaching students for thousands of years.

Sometimes Shikantaza is to be mindful of every experience that is arising at every moment. But other times, it is something different. It also has many flavors, and is sitting with whatever is. I think that open awareness (I prefer the term to 'mindfulness') of the body, perceptions and senses is fine during Zazen, so long as there is not seeking to be aware as a goal, and no labeling or analysis of the experience (for example, no categorizing of experiences into ' reactivity, mental states, and the mind'). Just sit, openly aware. The open awareness comes naturally from allowing the mind to quiet, dropping goals, judgments and extraneous thoughts. But don't hunt for it. Many times or most times, it may not be so, and some other Zazen will be.

Then, how do you tell that to someone who can't sit still for 5 minutes. Someone who is constantly delluded by thoughts, feelings, and focused attention? The Buddha wrote the Satipatthana sutra for those who are not able to just sit and be mindful. Some can do it and some need to start with small steps.

Sometimes a beginner must be taught various devises, such as counting the breath, to settle down. But, after some time, those training wheels can be cast off. However, I see nothing wrong with the practice you describe, Will, even for a non-beginner and very experienced sitter, if it is done before Zazen ... or very briefly at the start of Zazen. I think that the practice you describe is excellent as a way to settle the mind and build awareness, but should only be done as an overture to 'just sitting'. Maybe for a minute at the start. (If I understand what the practice is that you are describing, Will. I may misunderstand) It should not be considered the central practice, but just a means to settle and focus the mind briefly.

I am not crazy about mixing "just sitting" with the following from the Sutra, but I see no harm in doing it outside or preliminary to Shikantaza for a minute ... It seems (although possibly a wonderful practice too in another tradition and style of Buddhism) too deliberate and objective oriented to be mixed with 'just sitting'...

"On whatever occasion a monk trains himself to breathe in... and... out focusing on inconstancy etc." is not the practice of Shikantaza.

(From the Sutra): On whatever occasion a monk trains himself to breathe in... and... out focusing on inconstancy; trains himself to breathe in... and... out focusing on dispassion; trains himself to breathe in... and... out focusing on stopping; trains himself to breathe in... and... out focusing on relinquishment: On that occasion the monk remains focused on mental qualities in and of themselves -- ardent, aware and mindful -- subduing greed and sorrow with reference to the world.

By the way, the historical 'Buddha' probably did not write that Sutra. Some guy wrote that Sutra, teaching his own image of meditation, long after the Buddha died.

Harry wrote:

I'm nervey, and twitchy etc. etc... but that's got nothing to do with shikantaza, *it doesn't matter*... it'll just be nervey, twitchy shikanataza for a while which is not better or worse than non-nervey shikanataza. There's really no doing it right or wrong I think, at least looking at it like that is of no use whatsoever... and I am someone who was convinced I was doing it wrong for months, and I really pissed myself off (and I'm still convinced of this at times).

Yes, I think this is true Shikantaza. So, in other words, both Will and Harry are doing true Shikantaza: When you can be openly aware, just "noticing the knower', mindful of every experience that is arising at every moment (as Will describes) ... just sit with that, that is true Shikantaza. When you are nervy and twitchy, just a f**k up who is royally f**king up his Zazen ... just sit with that, that is true Shikantaza.

Most of us, if we have been sitting Zazen for awhile, will have both those experiences ... plus countless other experiences too during Zazen. They are collectively 'true Shikantaza'. I think.

I hope I did not fall into the elephant and dragon trap.

Gassho, Jundo

[will]

Gassho Jundo,

Thank you for your reply. Your insight has been helpful. I agree that it should not be substituted or mistaken for just sitting. The topic kind of got out of hand due to my initial post.

I am not crazy about mixing "just sitting" with the following from the Sutra, but I see no harm in doing it outside or preliminary to Shikantaza for a minute ... It seems (although possibly a wonderful practice too in another tradition and style of Buddhism) too deliberate and objective oriented to be mixed with 'just sitting'...

"On whatever occasion a monk trains himself to breathe in... and... out focusing on inconstancy etc." is not the practice of Shikantaza.

Quote:

(From the Sutra): On whatever occasion a monk trains himself to breathe in... and... out focusing on inconstancy; trains himself to breathe in... and... out focusing on dispassion; trains himself to breathe in... and... out focusing on stopping; trains himself to breathe in... and... out focusing on relinquishment: On that occasion the monk remains focused on mental qualities in and of themselves -- ardent, aware and mindful -- subduing greed and sorrow with reference to the world.

The translation I am familiar with is somewhat different:

Ven. Anzan Hoshin Roshi (The Straight Path: Zen Teachings on the
Foundations of Mindfulness)

And how, monks, does somone here view the body as body? Here,monks, one goes into the forest, to the roots of a tree, or to an empty room, sits down cross-legged and holds the body upright, keeping minfulness present.

Breathing in, one is mindful; breathing out one is mindful. Breathing out a long breath one understands "I breath out a long breath." Breathing out a short breath, one understands "I breathe out a short breath."....

One practices "I will breath out with full experience of the whole body." One practices "I will breath in with full experience of the whole body." One practices "I breath out calming the tendancies of the body" One practices "I breath in claming the tendancies of the body"

Just as a skillful turner or a turner's apprentice, making along turn knows "I am making a long turn,"or making a short turn knows "I am making a short turn," just so monks, the monk practices breathing out a long breath knowing "I breathe out a long breath..."

And moreover, monks, in walking one knows "I am walking;" in standing one knows "I am standing;" in sitting one knows "I am sitting." when lying down one knows "I am lying down." In whatever way the body is held, thus the body is understood.

And further, monks, in gooing forwards and in going back, complete knowing is realized. In looking ahead and looking behind, complete knowing is realized. Bending and stretching, complete knowing is realized. Carrying the robes and bowl, complete knowing is realized. In eating and drinking, chewing and tasting, complete knowing is realized. Excreting and urinating complete knowing is realized. In motion and in stillness, in sitting, in sleeping and waking, in speech and silence, complete knowing is realized.

Thus one lives completely viewing the body as body internally; one lives completely viewing the body as body externally. Thus one lives completely viewing the body as body both internally and externally.

One dwells observing the body as phenomena which arise; one dwells observing the body as phenomena which decay. Thus one dwells, observing the body as phenomena which both arise and decay.

When mindfulness "this is body" is established, there is just knowing and just minfulness.

Gassho Will

[Jundo]

Hi Will,

This is very different in feel, isn't it, from the earlier version. Still, not quite objectless 'Just Sitting', I think:

Will's new version (from Ven. Anzan Hoshin)

One practices "I will breath out with full experience of the whole body." One practices "I will breath in with full experience of the whole body." One practices "I breath out calming the tendancies of the body" One practices "I breath in calming the tendancies of the body"

Original Vipassana version:

On whatever occasion a monk breathing in [] discerns that he is breathing in ... breathing out [], discerns that he is breathing out ...; trains himself to breathe in... and... out sensitive to the entire body; trains himself to breathe in... and... out calming the bodily processes:

How about emphasizing "There is breathing out, breathing in ... and that which is experienced is naturally full experience". "There is breathing out, breathing in ... that which calms (or does not calm) does so naturally of itself". Something like that? And we don't even think this during Zazen, as much as naturally experience it.

One dwells observing the body as phenomena which arise; one dwells observing the body as phenomena which decay. Thus one dwells, observing the body as phenomena which both arise and decay.

This is fundamental Buddhist philosophy on the impermanency of all things. It is just that one should not be intentionally seeking to observe or ponder this DURING our form of Zazen. It is not that it is a bad perspective (quite the contrary!), but that we do not seek to observe or ponder any particular object during Zazen.

Just the style I teach. Just how I teach riding elephants and dragons.

Gassho, Jundo

[will]

I actually think that I am starting to see how this can be a barrier to practice. I'm just going to sit from now on and forget about the mumbo jumbo (so to speak).

I'm going to send you a pm too.

Thanks

Gassho Will

[Mr Walker]

Mumbo jumbo? Or just from another tradition, equally valid for those who follow that tradition?

The thing is, I suppose, rather "do not mix traditions"...???

Gassho
Walker

[will]

Yes. That was meant from the perspective of my own personal dealings in my practice. Basically, my own mumbo Jumbo.

Gassho Will

[Mr Walker]

Well then we're two... But I'm very new to Zen and know much more of early buddhism so I suppose I should listen more instead of having too many opinions about things I do not fully understand... but still, the discussion you have had is/was very interesting to me... - thanks!
W

[will]

I suppose I should listen more instead of having too many opinions about things I do not fully understand

You and I both hehe.

Gassho

[Jundo]

Hi,

It is always worth repeating, especially for those new to Dogen's philosophy ...

Other forms of Buddhism, typically, try to get someplace or to attain some special state. Dogen emphasized that the way to "get there" is never to leave ... then the mountain comes to Mohammed, so to speak. Or better, Mohammed realizes the mountain that is ever underfoot.

Our Shikantaza practice is 'radically' seeking nothing, through and through not looking to attain anything. Merely crossing the legs and straightening the back, is right there Buddha and all the Ancestors, right there. There is nothing to add to Zazen, nothing to take away. No special state to reach. It is a perfect act in and of itself.

One may "attain non-attainment" by not seeking to attain any goal (in the bottom of your heart, not trying to change things in any way). That does not mean, by the way, just being 'self-satisfied' with yourself, sitting there bored with some "what the hell, I don't care" attitude. It is more an "I am settled here, at home here, content in life 'as it is'" attitude.

It sounds strange, and counterproductive, to try to get some benefit out of something that has no benefit. But how many things do you do in your life with a true "non-attaining, non-seeking" attitude?

In fact, not seeking a 'special state of mind', not seeking to change life or add or take away from this perfectly imperfect world --IS-- a very special state of mind! We embrace the world on its own terms, even while there is so much about it we cannot accept.

I have been talking about this for awhile on the netcast, especially with the Fukanzazengi talks.

Gassho, Jundo of the Mumbo Jumbo

PS- As Walker says, I am not being critical of other ways of Practice or forms of Zazen. Each has its pros and cons. It is just that I teach what I teach, Master Dogen's view of 'Just Sitting", which is the practice I have done for 25 years. It is a good way to live, I think.