You have working posture, what about stillness?

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  • Omoi Otoshi
    Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 801

    #16
    Re: You have working posture, what about stillness?

    Originally posted by Kojip
    I see a difference around the application of restraining form in practice. By virtue of choosing to sit Zazen instead of raiding the fridge, I am to some degree applying a restraining form to body and mind. That restraint brings "I want" up to the wall. That is the thing, or I might as well just go for a beer because "there is nothing to do". But I don't, I choose to practice.
    We had this discussion before, didn't we? :mrgreen:

    Some are very disciplined about their sitting. I'm not. I refuse to be. Just an idea, for sure, but I have to trust my intuition in this. If I force myself to the cushion, that creates division and negative conditioning in my mind. If raiding the fridge was my heart's true desire, then going to the fridge instead of the cushion would make a lot of sense. But I normally go to the fridge A) because I'm really hungry, or B) I feel something is lacking and I'm trying to compensate that by eating. A) is fine and more important than Zazen B) is dukkha and delusion.

    I don't believe one bit in "there is nothing to do" either. In an absolute sense, there is nothing to do and no one to do it, because nothing has permanent, unchanging existance, and emptiness may be skillful means helping us to find calm and acceptance, but we live in the world perceived by our senses. It is all we've got and it's wonderful. The trick is to not let the small self, the ego, full of greed, anger and delusion, run the show, turning life into an out-of-control living nightmare. The method/non-method is following the noble eight-fold path, the middle way, to see things as they are, thus, as such, in this moment. Realizing the interconnectedness and wholeness of everything, realizing dependant co-arising. When we do, there there is less judging, less expectations, less delusion. I believe that ideally, there should be no separation between sitting on the cushion and my ordinary life off the cushion. This is part of why I love the Shikantaza as taught here at Treeleaf. Teachers like Thich Nhat Hanh advocate mindfulness of breathing during all aspects of ordinary life. If I was a believer in that, I would probably be less hesitant to follow breath single mindedly in Zazen. But I prefer to be with everything as is, not just breath. Both on and off the cushion, my practice is suchness, things as they are in this moment. When I try too much, I separate myself from suchness. Jundo sometimes says that Zazen is the flight simulator and that life is true flying. In many ways, I have found this to be true.

    In Zazen, there is nowhere for the ego to escape, it is there, exposed and in the open, and it doesn't like that. When we are truly aware of the moment as is, the ego has to go. I guess that is what you mean by running the I up the wall, but I could be wrong. But for me, the wording "run it up the wall", implies that it's something unwanted that we want to get rid of, that we are trying to chase away. In a sense, we do want to be rid of ego, to find true peace and harmony in our heart, to realize Buddha, but at the same time we have to completely and utterly accept our ego, greed, anger, delusion and wandering mind as is. So my aimless aim of this non-practice of just being is to embrace everything and not exclude anything, both on and off the cushion.

    I'm not sure this makes sense at all.... :roll: ops:

    /Pontus
    In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
    you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
    now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
    the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

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    • Taigu
      Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest
      • Aug 2008
      • 2710

      #17
      Re: You have working posture, what about stillness?

      Thank you for this post, Pontus.

      Returning to the source is a good way to forget Buddhism and open one's eyes on real life.
      Mindfullness of breathing is not our thing. Shikantaza can be much bigger than that. It also helps sometimes to bring things down to humble deeds and focus.
      If you can stay with what is, without judging, this is really priceless. This is the treasure room Dogen speaks about at the end of Fukanzazengi.

      gassho

      Taigu

      Comment

      • Shokai
        Dharma Transmitted Priest
        • Mar 2009
        • 6422

        #18
        Re: You have working posture, what about stillness?

        Sounds quite a bit to me as if we are all talking about the same experience but, in our own words.
        合掌,生開
        gassho, Shokai

        仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

        "Open to life in a benevolent way"

        https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

        Comment

        • Kaishin
          Member
          • Dec 2010
          • 2322

          #19
          Re: You have working posture, what about stillness?

          Originally posted by Omoi Otoshi
          Some are very disciplined about their sitting. I'm not. I refuse to be. Just an idea, for sure, but I have to trust my intuition in this. If I force myself to the cushion, that creates division and negative conditioning in my mind. If raiding the fridge was my heart's true desire, then going to the fridge instead of the cushion would make a lot of sense.
          This interests me.

          For me, disciplined sitting isn't so much about forcing myself onto the cushion. Rather, by sitting at (roughly) the same time every day regardless of my feelings, it allows for zazen to include all conditions. Sometimes in a great mood, sometimes angry, sometimes have a headache... I think this is important for bringing zazen off the cushion into daily life.

          Just a different perspective.
          Thanks,
          Kaishin (開心, Open Heart)
          Please take this layman's words with a grain of salt.

          Comment

          • Omoi Otoshi
            Member
            • Dec 2010
            • 801

            #20
            You have working posture, what about stillness?

            Yes, I'm totally OK with that!
            That's more like when we brush our teeth every night even though we would rather go straight to bed and not the strong, ascetic, kind of discipline where you force yourself to sit. I don't mean to say that I'm only sitting when living is easy and I feel all harmonious inside.
            In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
            you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
            now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
            the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

            Comment

            • RichardH
              Member
              • Nov 2011
              • 2800

              #21
              Re: You have working posture, what about stillness?

              Originally posted by Shokai
              Sounds quite a bit to me as if we are all talking about the same experience but, in our own words.
              I kind of thought so, but had something to say. Gassho. Kojip.

              ed. I came to Zen after first practicing Theravada Buddhism. There was an established practice before taking the Bodhisattva vows, so perhaps those vows are seen in an eccentric way. Perhaps I get the Dharma in an eccentric way. That question, how can there be absolutely nothing lacking, everything absolutely perfectly so as such, and yet just as surely and undeniably in need of action....tying loose ends forever? That is off the boards, forum boards or otherwise... for me . It has to be.

              Gassho.

              Comment

              • Kaishin
                Member
                • Dec 2010
                • 2322

                #22
                Re: You have working posture, what about stillness?

                Originally posted by Kojip
                That question, how can there be absolutely nothing lacking, everything absolutely perfectly so as such, and yet just as surely and undeniably in need of action....tying loose ends forever? That is off the boards, forum boards or otherwise... for me . It has to be.

                Gassho.
                Indeed! A similar discussion here.
                Thanks,
                Kaishin (開心, Open Heart)
                Please take this layman's words with a grain of salt.

                Comment

                • Kyonin
                  Dharma Transmitted Priest
                  • Oct 2010
                  • 6748

                  #23
                  Re: You have working posture, what about stillness?

                  When I sit I try not to move for as long as I can. I can mostly get away with it, except when correcting my back.

                  Sometimes my face or back itch badly, but I just sit with that and let it pass.

                  As far as I can tell, not moving teaches us a great lesson: sit with what is (as long as it's not so painful).

                  We accept life as it comes, without resistance.
                  Hondō Kyōnin
                  奔道 協忍

                  Comment

                  • Omoi Otoshi
                    Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 801

                    #24
                    You have working posture, what about stillness?

                    But in trying not to move, you are resisting, aren't you? I prefer to just let go of all trying and let the mind do what it does naturally and the body do what is does naturally. There may still be pain and itching to sit with, experiencing and accepting it fully. But there may also be a slight change in posture or a little scratch!

                    /Pontus
                    In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
                    you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
                    now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
                    the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

                    Comment

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