The Meaning of Mu

[Jinyo]

Re: The Meaning of Mu

Hi there - yes - thanks to all. I needed to hear that working with a koan can sometimes bring up frustration, and basically not to worry - give it time.
I'm looking forward to the book club. Strangely - reading through some of the other koans hasn't affected me like this one particular Koan (so maybe it is the Koan for me! )

Relating to the words of Thich Nhat Hahn - my 'habit energy' has been very jangled by asking 'does a dog have buddha nature'. :shock:

In Zen Keys, Hahn tells the story of Wei Shan asking Hsiang Yan 'What was your face before your parents were born?'
Hsiang Yan can't cope with not coming up with an answer and stomps off to a remote area and burns all his books, etc

I find this story very touching because I can really relate - last night I felt like a child in a strop - but I'm Ok now ops:

Thankyou for your teaching Jundo - and Pontus for your kindness -

Gassho

Willow

[Jundo]

Re: The Meaning of Mu

To Willow: My experience with koans has been both frustrating and rewarding. I've left interviews not knowing how I could possibly answer then had an answer just come to later, seemingly out of nowhere. For me, I think it is best worked on with a qualified teacher. Maybe the next book club will be a good start for you.

We don't generally roll that way with the Koans in Soto Zen, one does not have an answer that need come up the next day in or out of an interview room. The answers, like the many facets of a spinning jewel, come up in our changing lives ... many answers and non-answers (sometimes no answer, sometimes in between and both again). They come and go ... and there is certainly no "curriculum" of Koans that need be passed like social studies in the 3rd grade. There is no teacher who need approve your understanding in some mysterious way in a room ... and if the Koan has vibrancy one will find it so in one's own life.

Here is the simple "FREE AT HOME 'SELF' TEST" : If you do not understand, you life-world-mind will be a confused mess of greed, anger and delusion ... but if there is Understanding, there is Clarity (even amid and right through-and-through a world filled with greed, anger and delusion). Simple as that!

Frankly, I feel that a lot of what passes for "Koan study" and passing Koans is the blind leading the blind through a forest of "Zen Gobbledygook" amid scattered wondrous revelations (some parallels to undergoing Freudian psychoanalysis in that way). However, to each their own, and some may find it their dance.

If one wishes to engage in formal Koan study of such type, it is best to seek a Japanese Rinzai or Kwan Um teacher, or one of the Soto-Rinzai hybrid teachers in the White Plum, Diamond Sangha or the like. That is not how we dance with the Koans ... and the Koans dance us (and the dancing dances dancing) ... around here.

Taigu, you in accord on this one?

Gassho, Jundo

[Taigu]

Re: The Meaning of Mu

Yep. We are not doing any formal koan study here, and you should knock on other teachers doors if you wish to follow this path. We are just about to look at koans in a Soto style way, but the intimitate work with a koan in the Rinzai tradition requires a particular form of interaction between teacher and student and a stong guidance.

Gassho


taigu

[Jinyo]

Re: The Meaning of Mu

Chugai wrote

http://i.imgur.com/ARHvs.jpg


....... naked , homeless and a wee bit cold

Gassho

Willow

[Shokai]

Re: The Meaning of Mu

Now, that sounds a lot more like where i came in :roll:

[ChrisA]

Re: The Meaning of Mu

So, Willow, what do you want from Mu? And who is the "you" doing this wanting?

[Jinyo]

Re: The Meaning of Mu

Hi Chris - to be honest I wasn't at the stage of wanting anything specific from MU - I was/am simply at the stage of asking questions
and hoping to develop my understanding a little.

Today - I feel a lot more relaxed about the whole process. What came up for me was illuminating - this urge to perfect
my understanding too rapidly - but the lesson I've learnt from this is to ease off.

Not to be at all 'cold' in my response - but I am trying to be more sparing with words just now.
To answer who I think the 'you' is that is wanting, asking would lead me into too many words.

Sure you understand

Gassho

Willow

[Omoi Otoshi]

The Meaning of Mu

Just to weigh up all the Rinzai influence in this thread, here's a down to earth Soto explanation of this koan by Nishijima Roshi, translated by Brad Warner:
http://homepage.mac.com/doubtboy/joshusdog.html
(It doesn't help you understand Mu, the no of no no, Sunyata, buddha nature, but it removes some of the smoke screens, just like Jundo's post earlier in this thread.)

At one time a monk asked Master Joshu, “Does a dog have Buddha Nature or not?” Master Joshu answered, “No.”

In the chapter of Shobogenzo titled Bussho or “Buddha Nature” Master Dogen talks about the meaning of this word “no” as it relates to a conversation between the fifth and sixth patriarchs. He says, “This ‘no’ is not the ‘no’ of ‘have’ or ‘have not.’ It is the no of no no.”

The no of no no is a way of expression that we do not often hear. The no of no no means that even no is denied.

In other words, this is not the kind of no which we conceive in our brains as the conclusion to the question of whether something exists or not. The meaning of no as it is used here does not require any kind of thinking at all.

In regards to this koan there is no shortage of explanations that this “no” represents the no of no in other words the absolute no, or that it represents the absolute void, or that it’s something that cannot possibly be understood, or other similar nonsense which even those who spout it don’t seem to understand.

But by slandering the Buddha’s truth with such nonsense, people who put out these kinds of explanations are really just floundering in the darkness, not knowing what is what and tasting the miseries of Hell.

In the chapter of Shobogenzo titled “Sutra of Mountains and Water” Master Dogen says that any koan has a superb theoretical meaning. The purpose of the koan stories is to make difficult points of Buddhist philosophy clear by using a concrete example. The tendency among many Chinese monks to view the koans as some kind of riddle whose original meaning was impenetrable was something Master Dogen scoffed at.

A dog which exists before your eyes is most certainly a dog. There is nothing extra added to that dog. And there is nothing lacking in the dog either, nothing apart from itself that it needs in order to be what it is — a dog. A dog is a dog. Joshu understood that to theorize about whether a dog has Buddha nature or not is just adding something extra. When dealing with any koan it is necessary to read it in this way on the basis of Buddhist philosophy.

I am an old monk of over 70 years who has spent the past fifty or more years studying Master Dogen’s Shobogenzo. Therefore I am an amateur when it comes to the koans included in Mumonkan and I have some misgivings. But on the basis of the Buddhist philosophy which I have absorbed through long years of studying Shobogenzo, there is no room for doubt about the meaning of this koan.

[Kaishin]

Re: The Meaning of Mu

Willow, hopefully Jundo & Taigu's latest posts shed some more light on how koans are dealt with here. You should also know that there are some folks here who are also involved with other sanghas outside Treeleaf and may be engaging in the rinzai-style koan study. So confusion comes easily here

Don't hesitate to contact the teachers here directly by Private Message or you can even setup a time to chat via Skype if you want direct clarification on issues.

[ChrisA]

Re: The Meaning of Mu

Willow, your response was not cold at all! Can't say I understand, though. :wink:

[Jinyo]

Re: The Meaning of Mu

Matt thankyou.

I did find Jundo and Taigu's posts very helpful.

In my initial response, when I mentioned 'the tail chasing the tail' - I'm aware that 'chasing my own tail' is what I'd be doing
if I focus too much on the whole subject of Koans just now. I don't feel it's helping my practice and as Koan
study isn't essential to shikantanza I need to re-orientate.

Gassho

Willow

[Keishin]

Re: The Meaning of Mu

At one time I thought it would be fun to have funny zen tee shirts
One I had in mind was 'what part of mu do you not understand?'

I still get a chuckle from that one

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: The Meaning of Mu

At one time I thought it would be fun to have funny zen tee shirts
One I had in mind was 'what part of mu do you not understand?'

I still get a chuckle from that one

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: The Meaning of Mu

I think you'll like these T-shirts!
You should ask them to print yours!
http://www.delightenment.com/

[Keishin]

Re: The Meaning of Mu

Hello Pontus,

What fun! Loved the link. Thank you.