Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

[Shujin]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

Nindo - Coincidentally, the local group here is affiliated with Atlanta Zen Center. :shock:

After giving it some thought, and following the advice on this this thread, I will sit with the group when my work schedule allows. On the other hand, I won't get caught up in kyosaku madness.

The video and images were very helpful. I'd seen the of Suzuki & Katagiri in a different context; this was a nice counterpoint.

Who's the crazy bearded guy in the video, though? :twisted:

deep bows,
Shujin

[Nindo]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

Nindo - Coincidentally, the local group here is affiliated with Atlanta Zen Center. :shock:

You said so, that's why I mentioned it :wink:

[Taigu]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

Please Lipor, don't do that. You may sit on the Zen books, it is good idea ( Actually, not really). Books are meant for reading, and your body doesn't need such a feed back. I know it may sound pretty strange, but one should let that kind of worry go( do i sit properly, am I up?). You may sometimes get a computer scream and a camera and just check but don't make it a daily business.

gassho


Taigu

[ChrisA]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

I've often wondered about Shunryu Suzuki's posture, having watched a video in the past that revealed his fingers to be slightly askew while in the mudra. My pinkie often does this during zazen, and I'd think, well, if Suzuki's fingers did it....

To that end:

This is a very good picture of what I want to convey, You may see the old Suzuki Shunryu allowing and open and the young and fierce Katagiri about to leap, sitting full gear with muscles and all.
Needless to say, I would fully support the guy on the left, because he is perfectly natural and non doing, yet up, always up. Katagiri with this over arched back and chin almost up too is doing far too much.

gassho

Taigu

A picture is worth a thousand words -- well, at least with a good caption. :wink:

Gassho, Taigu!

[Koshin]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

You may sit on the Zen books, it is good idea ( Actually, not really). Books are meant for reading, and your body doesn't need such a feed back.

ha ha ha Zen by osmosis

Thank you Taigu, then I will not-work on my posture, just let my mind forget my body and my body forget my mind.

Gassho

[Dokan]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

The tensions you have experienced are byproducts of a forceful and not natural way of sitting.

I have found one of the most beautiful gems in Alexander Technique has been the dropping of end-gaining. Just letting our bodies be our bodies. This doesn't mean slouch neither does it mean to be rigid, your body knows. Sadly many people with good intentions try to help and end up only building more walls to be torn down later.

Enjoy your practice!

Gassho,

Dokan

[Ryumon]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

I have found one of the most beautiful gems in Alexander Technique has been the dropping of end-gaining. Just letting our bodies be our bodies. This doesn't mean slouch neither does it mean to be rigid, your body knows. Sadly many people with good intentions try to help and end up only building more walls to be torn down later.

And it's certainly the most difficult thing to achieve. But when it does work, the feeling of freeness in the body is quite surprising.

[Myozan Kodo]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

This is a very good thread. Full of great advice. Thanks Taigu.
Gassho
Myozan

[Emmet]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

I've been using a seiza bench, but I can't always shake the feeling that I'm giving up or something, or that I should "try harder"...

Dogen said that the most important point was not to strive to become a Buddha, but as thought follows thought, not to cling to any of them.

I encourage people to slouch. Really slouch; like a rag doll dropped by a child, and sit with that a moment. How does that feel? How's your breathing, blood flow, chi? Now sit ramrod (kyosaku) straight; like a Fort Benning drill sergeant is glaring at you inches from your nose. Within seconds, most people I encounter start to feel pain somewhere. What's your mind doing? Now, sit with what Yasutani roshi called a sense of majesty; like a mountain, or a fine ancient pine tree. Open and spacious, no tension anywhere, none of the claustrophobic constriction of the former, nor the tight rigidity of body/mind of the latter; as Suzuki roshi said; just sitting; nothing special.

Discomfort is one thing, but if you're in real pain, you're not doing shikantaza, you're meditating on your pain. I was taught that it takes perhaps three years to "find your seat", and as we gain experience and age, our "seat" will change, too. A couple of us are yoga teachers and sit full lotus, but most of us sit Burmese or seiza, some with benches, some with cushions, some without. Some sit on those odd benches with knee pads that were popular as computer chairs several years ago, others sit in chairs, as roshi Philip Kapleau did towards the end of his life. Although not recommended, Yasutani roshi thought that zazen in bed was perfectly acceptable if due to illness or infirmity that was the best you could do. What's important is to sit, respectful of others and tradition, but not to mindlessly conform to others expectations.

[Shokai]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

(^v^)

[Shohei]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

Brilliant thread, and that picture is priceless!

Gassho
Shohei

[RichardH]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

I was taught that discomfort is ok, because life has discomfort, and if there is the seeking of comfort in sitting, it is running from life. This really helped me. My posture is a natural enough posture for my body, quarter lotus, knees down, back straight, chin in. But once taken, unless there is risk of injury, it is like that come hell or high water. I love the story (probably not true) about Oscar Wilde as he died. That last thing he did was look at the hideous wallpaper he had been staring at all day and say "one of us has to go". I also remember when my wife was laying in bed badly burned from radiation therapy, her chest covered in burns, some open. All she could do is lay still. She said "I am like a bug pinned to the wall, I can either wiggle or just be the wall". She was amazing, in pain and beyond pain. I don't believe in the military style super-discipline trip, but at the same time, by sitting with and through experiences I don't want to sit through, more of life is opened to.

I'm not sure how this squares with sitting as taught here.... I think it does.

[Nenka]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

Thank you, Piobair.

_/_

Jen