Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

[Shujin]

Hey y'all. I was sitting with a zen group earlier in the week that uses the kyosaku. This has been a topic discussed here from time to time, so I won't delve into the merit of the awakening stick. I did want to approach some of my thoughts/experience, however.

In the first period of zazen, my posture was corrected with the kyosaku. A couple of things became readily apparent in that moment. First, that I have a pronounced slouch in my posture. Second, perhaps due to the first, as I conformed to the kyosaku against my back, I felt that this new posture was absolutely bolt-upright. I wound up developing considerable tension in my neck and shoulders, which hasn't been an issue the past. It also reminded me of the analogy of breaking through the ceiling with one's head while sitting.

I'd put those thoughts aside until today, when I was listening to Taigu's Fukanzazengi 4 talk. When the talk turned on the point of trying to pour oneself into someone else's posture, I returned to this experience.

So, am I bringing all this rigidity into a novel (for me) posture? Either way, I do need to slouch less. :|

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on the matter. Thanks!

gassho,
Shujin

[Taigu]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

My thoughts are crystal clear about this...What you have experienced is a typical correction done by untrained hands that goes along with the stupid and harmful belief that the posture as they call it has to be corrected and corrected from outside. The tensions you have experienced are byproducts of a forceful and not natural way of sitting.

This is exactly what goes on in the Zen world and it p..... me off.

A bunch of happy few never experience any major trouble sitting but most of us do. And this approach to how to sit is butchery.

This rigidity is not zazen and this is precisely the very nature and object of my teaching.

I sat 20 years doing this military act and hitting and correcting people with kyosaku.
I sat twenty years in pain and agony thinking this was the way.
I sat in the most ridiculous way teaching people to follow the one eyed fool I was.


I would like you to watch my vids about sitting in the beginner section and seek for the help and advice of a good Alexander Technique teacher.

Slouching is not the issue. At least your perception of slouching and also the intention of the person trying to help you.

I strongly recommand you not to follow such corrections. If you watch the vids of the December retreat, you will see how I sit, three is no tension there, no pain whatsoever. Does it look slouching in any way?
You may get in touch with me.

NOBODY SHOULD SIT AND BE CORRECTED THAT WAY


gassho


Taigu

[Jundo]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

Yep!

More little comments on this same point here ...

viewtopic.php?p=69250#p69250

Gassho, Jundo

[Heisoku]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

I am interested in this and the other thread on this forum on posture.
I have followed both Jundo and Taigu's instructions and have developed a relaxed bodily attitude without the slouching that can occur after a while(particularly when the mind starts to wander!). My question is whether there is any merit in trying to consciously 'relax' joints or muscle pains during zazen? I know it is not shikantaza when I do this, but it does help to quell any pains and aches which arise from the sitting position or from whatever condition you bring to the sitting. Myself I ache like crazy a day after an aikido session and my shoulders tighten in sitting so I consiously try to relax the muscles and joints to let the pain relax out. Sometimes it works sometimes not... just interested in your views since aging is playing an increasing (interfering) role in my sitting.

[Nindo]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

In the first period of zazen, my posture was corrected with the kyosaku.

I encountered this 10 years ago when I checked out Atlanta Zen Centre. It TOTALLY pissed me off (not only the act, but also the attitude it was done with) and I never went back to that centre. Too bad, it took me another 5 years to get into Zen (on another continent).

Today, if I were to sit with them, I would just let it pass and not try to conform my body to this standard. If this is the only group you have access to, don't be turned off by this (unless they go overboard), but don't take it seriously either.

I have never heard that the kyosaku is used this way in any other centre. I have received kyosaku hits at sesshin at my own request and that worked for me (administered by very experienced practitioners).

[Jundo]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

I have never heard that the kyosaku is used this way in any other centre. I have received kyosaku hits at sesshin at my own request and that worked for me (administered by very experienced practitioners).

Hi,

Most Zazen groups I have sat with in Japan do so. I never had a problem with it. When in Rome, sit as the Romans sit ... but after that (when the fellow with the Kyosaku stick has gone), follow Taigu's advice and find your own balanced, fluid, ever changing position(s).

By the way, when I was sitting at a monastery in China late last year, I did not find that same rigidity of posture one finds in Japan. It is a bit of a stereotype, but generally in the traditional arts, the Japanese are much more fixated than the Chinese on precise, "one size fits all", often rigid, fixed "proper" forms. Here is a video made when I sat in China (at the 6th Ancestors Temple), and you can see the variety of "to each his own" postures between the 4:20 and 8:20 marks here (the film is a little dark at points) ...

[youtube]

[/youtube]

Contrast that with this diagram from the Rinzai-shu official page on sitting posture in Japan ...



Gassho, J

[Taigu]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

This is a very good picture of what I want to convey, You may see the old Suzuki Shunryu allowing and open and the young and fierce Katagiri about to leap, sitting full gear with muscles and all.
Needless to say, I would fully support the guy on the left, because he is perfectly natural and non doing, yet up, always up. Katagiri with this over arched back and chin almost up too is doing far too much.

gassho


Taigu

Attached files

[Jinyo]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

I was discussing the subject of posture with my son who is training towards
his black belt in taekwondo. Later - he sent me this text.

'...purely from a taekwondo prespective, historically 'hard' training has proven to be damaging
to joints and is no longer practiced, that's only changed in the past 20 years.
Once upon a time the world was flat and Charles Darwin hadn't been born'.

Made me

Gassho

Willow

[Nenka]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

I've been having strange twinges of pain in my left knee lately (I did pop that kneecap about 21 years ago and it's never been quite the same.) Used to sit half-lotus, but now I'm just worried about making the problem worse. So I've been using a seiza bench, but I can't always shake the feeling that I'm giving up or something, or that I should "try harder" to make a folded-leg posture work. Perhaps I should let go of trying to be so "correct" and "proper?" Maybe I'm as susceptible to ideas of (as someone here once put it ) macho bullshit as anyone else?

Gassho

The Kneeler

[Patrick]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

My thoughts are crystal clear about this...What you have experienced is a typical correction done by untrained hands that goes along with the stupid and harmful belief that the posture as they call it has to be corrected and corrected from outside. The tensions you have experienced are byproducts of a forceful and not natural way of sitting.

This is exactly what goes on in the Zen world and it p..... me off.

A bunch of happy few never experience any major trouble sitting but most of us do. And this approach to how to sit is butchery.

This rigidity is not zazen and this is precisely the very nature and object of my teaching.

I sat 20 years doing this military act and hitting and correcting people with kyosaku.
I sat twenty years in pain and agony thinking this was the way.
I sat in the most ridiculous way teaching people to follow the one eyed fool I was.


I would like you to watch my vids about sitting in the beginner section and seek for the help and advice of a good Alexander Technique teacher.

Slouching is not the issue. At least your perception of slouching and also the intention of the person trying to help you.

I strongly recommand you not to follow such corrections. If you watch the vids of the December retreat, you will see how I sit, three is no tension there, no pain whatsoever. Does it look slouching in any way?
You may get in touch with me.

NOBODY SHOULD SIT AND BE CORRECTED THAT WAY


gassho


Taigu

Thank you for your teaching !
There should be more teachers like you.

[Rich]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

Why I can't keep the same position

Half lotus- after 30. Minutes my knee hurts too much

Sitting in chair- after a couple of hours my back hurts too much

Standing- after 10 minutes I get too tired

Lying down. - after 20 minutes. I fall asleep

If I mix and match the above I think i'll be Ok

[Ryumon]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

Rich,

What I've found works will is sitting on a four-footed stool - a medium-height one, around 65 cm - and putting a piece of wood - 3-4 cm - under the rear feet. The tilt makes it much better for the back, and it being relatively high means that my thighs are not parallel to the floor, putting a bit more weight on my feet than if I were sitting on a lower stool. If you want a picture, let me know; that might not all be very clear...

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

Rich, have you tried Burmese?

[Rich]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

Kirk and omoi, thanks for the suggestions.

[Koshin]

Re: Posture, Kyosaku, Trying

I have a question... I tend to bend my back at all times (walking, sitting at work, driving, etc.). I live in Mexico City, where everybody are in between 1.60 to 1.70 meters tall, I am 1.87...so, you know, I am the classic guy who bends his back because everybody is smaller and wants to fit ....no, really, I have a very bad posture in my back. Recently, I went to a Chiropractor who crunched my back bones with real pleasure: crack...crunch...opps maybe I broke something

He offered some tips about sitting in the car, the office, at home, etc. One of them was the old tip of holding a book on the top of the head, not letting it drop, so I know I am in a straight posture, shoulders a little back and down, chest open, my back making full contact with the backrest, but without straining my muscles, letting my body find a confortable but straight position...so:

As a beginner, should I try this a little bit, Shikantaza with a book in my head?.....it could be a little stash of books on Zen :wink: