Japanese Monk?

[Jundo]

Re: Japanese Monk?

Hey Jundo,

I can certainly understand the sentiment of being extremely cautious of folks who present themselves as teachers, but do the terms "monk", "priest", or "minister" automatically equate to "teacher"? Can a person be one without being the other?

It varies from school to school, lineage to lineage, teacher to teacher (like so many "traditions") ...

... but generally in the Soto School, one is considered an "Unsui", meaning “clouds and water”, for many years between the "Home leaving" Ordination ceremony and receiving Dharma Transmission as a Teacher. The best translation in English is “apprentice priest/monk” or "novice priest/monk" or “priest/monk trainee”. One is not considered a full priest, let alone authorized to teach.

Actually, the system in Japan is much MUCH more complicated than that. Here is a chart and discussion of some of the many stages, ceremonies, fee payments (ummm .... "donations"), funny hats, and the like required by the "Soto-shu" in Japan ... a BIG church not unlike the Catholic Church with its own funny hats. Most Lineages in the West have not adopted the majority of these requirements (some have, or have taken other steps to comply with the Soto-shu procedures. Nishijima Roshi generally couldn't give a rat's behind for most of it). Of course, this chart is just about the Soto-shu ... and the Rinzai-shu in Japan has its own ways (varying from Rinzai-shu Lineage to Lineage), and don't even get me started on China which has its own very different stages, ceremonies and requirements!



If you would like more details on the stages, ceremonies, fee payments, funny hats, and the like required by the "Soto-shu" in Japan ... Muho from Antai-ji did a very detailed series of essays recently ...

http://antaiji.dogen-zen.de/eng/lotus10.shtml

Most Western Lineages, like our own, are walking a Middle Way ... keeping the heart of the Traditions, leaving the rest.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jundo]

Re: Japanese Monk?

Can a person be one without being the other?

Oh, and in this life we say that the mountains and trees, sickness and health, fools and children and wisemen can all be our "teachers" if we have the eyes and ears to hear that teaching.

Also, teachers teach students and students ever teach teachers.

Gassho, J

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Japanese Monk?

Thanks for the teaching regarding dharma transmission, I had missed that!
And for the wonderful picture!

I laughed out loud... There are probably thousands of people out there yearning for the next step, striving to take their practice to the next level, taking all of these ceremonies and japanese titles and their practice very seriously indeed. Life and death, liberation from dukkha, the core of existance. And here we have a silly little cartoon explaining it all, including the fees! :shock:
Now THAT is skillful means! I love it. If you can't look through your delusions after seeing this picture, will you ever be able too..?

And I fully agree that self-proclaimed gurus can be dangerous for a lot of people. Words are just words and have different meanings for different people, but what I understand to be a true monk is not a danger to anyone. A monk may be a beacon, an example for others, but I don't necessarily see being monk as being a guru. The danger comes from prosetylizing, self-aggrandizement, the three poisons, in my opinion. For me, being a monk is more of a personal vow to dedicate one's life to practice.

Thanks for pointing to the middle way again and again!

Gassho,
Pontus

[Rev R]

Re: Japanese Monk?

Thanks for that Jundo. Still looks like a fancy mess to these eyes, but if that is the dance to be a teacher of Soto Zen, that is the dance one must do. Provided Soto Zen is the calling.

And I fully agree that self-proclaimed gurus can be dangerous for a lot of people.

Independent contractors get no love. But, you are right.

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Japanese Monk?

If you consider yourself a monk, you are a monk.

Really? So if I consider myself a super-hero with awesome powers, does that make me one?

I tend to disagree. In fact, the use of the word "monk" does bother me, because I don't think it fits with the way such people act and interact with the world. Monk, in English, has very strong connotations of being apart from others. This is historically because of the way Catholic monks lived, but we can't shake those connotations. (I'm a firm believer in the power of semantics, notably the power of unconscious connotations of words.)

The dictionary on my Mac defines it as:

a member of a religious community of men typically living under vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience.

(Of course, the same entry also has this, which will please Jundo:

Monk, Thelonious |m?NGk|
(1917–82), US jazz pianist and composer; a founder of the bebop style in the early 1940s; full name Thelonious Sphere Monk. Notable compositions: “Round Midnight,”“Straight, No Chaser,” and “Well, You Needn't.”

No, I agree that there should be a different word. I think "cleric" would be the most apt, and the thesaurus on my Mac gives a number of other possibilities for words that are similar to "priest":

cleric, churchman, churchwoman, man/woman of the cloth, man/woman of God, ecclesiastic; priest, minister, pastor, preacher, chaplain, father, bishop, rector, parson, vicar, curate, deacon, deaconess; monk, nun, religious, friar, sister, brother; informal reverend, padre, sky pilot, Bible thumper; dated divine.

Okay, we can perhaps leave out "Bible thumper," but I really like "sky pilot;" I never heard that before. :-)

My oh my. Labels, labels everywhere and not a one to fit........ So, the power of semantics seems to strike me in the same way as the "power" of governments, it exists only so long as the governed validate it. Semantics only has power as long as the people who hear/speak/use language, less as a way to communicate and more as a way to discriminate between phenomenon, subscribe to it. Should we not move past labels? Should we not say that we are simple practicioners of the Way whether we are monks, priests, head priests, abbots, sky marshals, grand poohbahs or whatever?