Mental health risks of meditation?

Thank you Jundo.

I thought about your advice on the way to work this morning. I sometimes worry that I hold life too loosely. I can actually be quite passive at times, to the extent it can be detrimental in some areas in my life. And that's what grabs me sometimes... this feeling that if all I do is find some measure of peace with my life as it is, I might one day find myself on my deathbed (if I am so lucky as to be aware of my impending death when it comes) and wonder, "Did I miss something...?" I've wanted to know "the truth" as long as I can remember; I'm not sure I can really give up that hunger to know without losing vital energy, without giving up or losing something of my "soul" (to use a poetic expression). But perhaps I am actually stifling or dampening that vital fire or energy by using it the way I do.

[Jundo]

Dear Steph,

This is beautifully stated, and is a wonderful Practice ...

As for now, the greatest peace that seems possible to me comes from actively relinquishing the self in acts of love and service, catching the mind in anger and bringing it gently back to compassion. It's a practice that mirrors the rhythm of zazen.

Developing a gentle, loving, forgiving attitude toward myself, my loved ones, people who have hurt me, people who have showed me kindness, beings I pass on the street, is the focal point of my practice and my greatest source of peace and happiness.

As to the rest, yes, I think you need to reign in or drop a bit your "aggressive personality" and "inner fire" that causes you to push yourself (to use your expressions). There are Zen styles that emphasize that, and that is fine. And if I meet someone too passive, or without an inner fire, I often tell them to be more agressive. But I recommend you loosen up on this. I Ibid my comments to you elsewhere on ths Forum ...

viewtopic.php?p=6123#6123

Gassho, J

Thank you for the feedback, Jundo. You seem to have some sharp insights about the style of the Maezumi lineage, and I can't disagree with any of them. My point elsewhere was that they at least nominally incorporate shikantaza as a practice path, but I agree that it's not what they do "best."

Let me be clear about my practice with a sangha and teacher--it has always been sporadic. I have not (yet, if ever) made a commitment to a teacher, and have really only worked with one on a handful of retreats and one month-long residency. The fact that I haven't "progressed" "beyond" breath-counting is by my own choice and measure, really, as I could do whatever I wanted on the cushion at home and no one ('cept me) would know the difference.

I believe that developing concentration is important for me. I have a very intelligent, but a very flighty and fickle mind. Having the count or the breath-sensation as an anchor is very helpful. But as I've written elsewhere, it's not all that "happens" when I sit.

Of course, I could be doing something "wrong." How would I know? I had a strong desire for some time to find a teacher, but my recent disillusionments have nipped it in the bud for a while. I'm not looking for an enlightenment that no one else out there seems to have found. Maybe eventually my faith in this area will stir back up again. As for now, the greatest peace that seems possible to me comes from actively relinquishing the self in acts of love and service, catching the mind in anger and bringing it gently back to compassion. It's a practice that mirrors the rhythm of zazen.

Developing a gentle, loving, forgiving attitude toward myself, my loved ones, people who have hurt me, people who have showed me kindness, beings I pass on the street, is the focal point of my practice and my greatest source of peace and happiness. Even when I am lonely, defeated, distraught, this kindness rejuvenates and reanimates. What I do on the cushion facilitates and supports this practice, so I don't worry so much any more that it doesn't seem like I'm "getting anywhere" in terms of impressive meditative feats (the zazen Olympics! :lol: ).

What peace I haven't found in my life isn't because of my practice. It's because of my loneliness and my hunger to be loved, which I am tired of trying to use zazen to assuage. I can numb myself into pseudo-happiness with the power of my mind, but not only am I too stupidly committed to this increasingly distant ideal of "truth," I know I will always feel that animal ache if my animal life lacks certain comforts, no matter how much equanimity I develop in spite of it. Perhaps if I were a great saint, I could completely relinquish this hunger and offer it to all beings. But alas, I am not such a one.

Perhaps it is the combination of my aggressive personality and this deep hunger for truth that makes my "style" seem more Rinzai. I'm not really sure it's the influence of my limited training within White Plum, though certainly I cannot say it hasn't had its influence as well. But I'm a pretty sorry Rinzai Zen student, as I can hardly even sustain joriki, much less have a kensho. But I'm a little less disappointed in my inabilities there, as I have an "ex" who claimed to me some months ago to have had a kensho experience at a sesshin, promptly after which he began to act like even more of a moron than before. :lol: He's not the type to make up extravagant claims like that, so I just suspect that kensho ain't all some make it out to be...

And will, I get where you're coming from. You make your point eloquently. And I think that sort of practice is very important. But I think it may boil down to something as mundane as a personality difference. I love to push myself; there's an inner fire that seeks expression. And there's also that hunger for "truth," which in the end may prove to lead nowhere, but that doesn't change the fact that I feel it, and very intensely.

[will]

This push seems to miss the point. It seems that the only thing one need do is just sit on the cushion day after day without any goal in mind. Dropping likes, dislikes, strategies, techniques, hopes, fears, pains. How does that happen do we need a technique? Not really. Sit day after day with no goal in mind. The only goal is to sit. That's it. Nothing more. Not sit for 30 minutes, but to just sit.

It's a little disturbing when practice is associated with some big insight or awaking, or kensho. That could very easily lead to a much longer path or confusion.

When someone sits and has a lot going on, what do you say? Sit.

I think too much.
Sit.
I don't get it.
Sit.
I get it.
Sit.
Emptiness is form. Form is emptiness.
Sit.

Gassho Will

[Jundo]

1) I think any form of meditation can foster what I have experienced as a mild form of a psychotic break. Let me explain--any meditation that seeks to turn the light inward to illuminate the self sets up conditions in which one watches the content of the mind without identifying with it. In other words, one is subtly deconstructing the ego by seeing that "I" am not making or in control of "my thoughts." The question arises then, "Well who is then?" or "Well where does it all come from?" Can turn into hall-of-mirrors phantasmagoria very quickly. The self "selves" off into multiple selves and it all comes crashing merrily down. If one is not prepared for such an experience, has no reference point (such as Zen teachings), this could quickly become a frightening experience of psychological derailment.

I have "zazen'd" through some rough emotional periods and I find that intense emotional states can increase the disorientation factor a lot. When someone around whom I had begun to build a lot of expectations and construct a lot of identity-scaffolding suddenly broke up with me, I was able to watch in fascination as my whole identity fell apart. This didn't last very long--the ego is very resilient and rebuilds itself quickly--but I got enough of a window into the process to feel like I had watched what might be experienced as psychosis by others, the loss of a self and its familiar reference points.

Of course, throw someone who already has an unstable ego or identity, or shifting and unreliable reference points, such as a person with schizophrenia, into practices that foster such experiences, and it's quite possible in my mind that it could precipitate what in the professional lingo is termed "decompensation," or the prelude or direct passage into a psychotic break. Of course, it always depends on the individual.

2) I've practiced a good bit in the White Plum lineage and have had very positive experiences. Certainly, I would agree there is more of a Rinzai leaning to it, but the Soto influence is there in more than name only. It's basically up to the student--if the student has a certain bent of mind or a hunger for a spiritual experience, they can take the koan/Rinzai path, but students also can take up the path of "just sitting." Such students take up the Shobogenzo as an object of study rather than koans. And by my unenlightened point of view, John Daido Loori is a sublime interpreter of Dogen both in art and written word. Of course, it can be hard to resist the culture of kensho-seeking, which does seem predominant, but as far as I know from other practitioners to whom I've spoken, it can be, and is, done (I never got past breath counting, so I couldn't tell you from personal experience).

Hi again Steph,

Although Dogen was a hardass about daily Sitting, he also spoke (in Fukanzaengi) of Zazen as "It is just a peaceful and effortless gate to reality." When you write ...

Let me explain--any meditation that seeks to turn the light inward to illuminate the self sets up conditions in which one watches the content of the mind without identifying with it. In other words, one is subtly deconstructing the ego by seeing that "I" am not making or in control of "my thoughts." The question arises then, "Well who is then?" or "Well where does it all come from?"

It may be my imagination, but there is a sharpness and intensity to the way you phrase this. It might be my imagination, but I want to jump to the conclusion that this is the influence of Maezumi Roshi's White Plum. Although they teach Dogen, they do so through a Rinzai lens. This is less true these days, and was more true when the Sanbo-Kyodan influence on the lineage was stronger. But, I still hear it in many talks by Daido Roshi and others (I am a BIG Daido fan, by the way. Don't get me wrong. It is just that you have to see that different chefs cook differently and recognize what he is doing ... and I think he is not a true "Sjhikantaza" chef for all his talents with other cuisine. Don't order the hamburger in a Chinese restaurant.). I like to say that Rinzai style is more about dynamiting the wall or knocking out some bricks, while traditional Soto is to be like air which naturally surrounds and passes through the wall, becomes the wall. The White Plum is more on the Soto side, but they still talk about battling and banging on that wall quite a bit. As you put it, the "culture of kensho seeking" is predominant.

If you are still counting the breaths, and talking about "never having gotten past breath counting" after so many years, then something is off tune, I think.

Again, I may be jumping to conclusions.

Gassho, Jundo

1) I think any form of meditation can foster what I have experienced as a mild form of a psychotic break. Let me explain--any meditation that seeks to turn the light inward to illuminate the self sets up conditions in which one watches the content of the mind without identifying with it. In other words, one is subtly deconstructing the ego by seeing that "I" am not making or in control of "my thoughts." The question arises then, "Well who is then?" or "Well where does it all come from?" Can turn into hall-of-mirrors phantasmagoria very quickly. The self "selves" off into multiple selves and it all comes crashing merrily down. If one is not prepared for such an experience, has no reference point (such as Zen teachings), this could quickly become a frightening experience of psychological derailment.

I have "zazen'd" through some rough emotional periods and I find that intense emotional states can increase the disorientation factor a lot. When someone around whom I had begun to build a lot of expectations and construct a lot of identity-scaffolding suddenly broke up with me, I was able to watch in fascination as my whole identity fell apart. This didn't last very long--the ego is very resilient and rebuilds itself quickly--but I got enough of a window into the process to feel like I had watched what might be experienced as psychosis by others, the loss of a self and its familiar reference points.

Of course, throw someone who already has an unstable ego or identity, or shifting and unreliable reference points, such as a person with schizophrenia, into practices that foster such experiences, and it's quite possible in my mind that it could precipitate what in the professional lingo is termed "decompensation," or the prelude or direct passage into a psychotic break. Of course, it always depends on the individual.

2) I've practiced a good bit in the White Plum lineage and have had very positive experiences. Certainly, I would agree there is more of a Rinzai leaning to it, but the Soto influence is there in more than name only. It's basically up to the student--if the student has a certain bent of mind or a hunger for a spiritual experience, they can take the koan/Rinzai path, but students also can take up the path of "just sitting." Such students take up the Shobogenzo as an object of study rather than koans. And by my unenlightened point of view, John Daido Loori is a sublime interpreter of Dogen both in art and written word. Of course, it can be hard to resist the culture of kensho-seeking, which does seem predominant, but as far as I know from other practitioners to whom I've spoken, it can be, and is, done (I never got past breath counting, so I couldn't tell you from personal experience).

[Jun]

Many visualisation meditation practitioners that I've spoken with have complained of headaches and severe migraines. It wasn't uncommon when I was practising Shingon-shu to hear of migraines and such from too much exertion. Hallucinations were also a common occurrence.

This was due to over-exertion on visualisation techniques without first having cultivated mindfulness.

[will]

Hey Paige,

I didn't actually go. I did the one on youtube. Pretty much the same, I'm guessing, only can't ask question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zT9y1YEUjy0[/video]]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a7okvWbVXk&mode=related&search=[/video]]

... ed&search=

There's about 11 parts.

Actually, I just recieved an email from Bruce of (Zeneye) about what they do there. I'm going to post it on the forum when he gives me the go ahead. Don't want to post it without asking first.

Gassho

[paige]

we should not presume things about others, but that we are all in the same boat. However, I am a firm believer of the Soto Tradition of practice, practice, practice.

Thanks Will! I completely agree on both counts, but I'm not very good at expressing myself.

I have met some "just sitting" folks who've completely over-done meditation - for example damaging their knees by sitting long hours without adequate support. Like Jundo's analogy about running/ jogging - anything can be done to excess. That was what I was thinking when I said that Soto-shu wasn't automatically 'safe.' (Yes, I know that bad knees are different from mental health risks.)

I thought you were in China, Will? When did you go to a Big Mind retreat?

[will]

it's like you said my friend, we shouldn't presume things. so really, just going off a very short amount of time, we can't say that she is or isn't judgmental or a brainwashed groupie.

hehe. yeah.

[Rev R]

hey will,

it's like you said my friend, we shouldn't presume things. so really, just going off a very short amount of time, we can't say that she is or isn't judgmental or a brainwashed groupie.

I checked out the Big Mind site a while back just to see what got Brad's feathers in a ruffle (not too long before I joined Treeleaf as a matter of fact). To be honest I can't say that what I saw swayed me one way or the other as far as the "controversy" went. All I know is that it didn't seem to offer anything to enrich my practice.

This outsider wanders on.



a rare gassho
R

[will]

Hehe. Yeah. "controversial"

I just like that her attitude is not so judgemental and she doesn't sound like a brainwashed groupy

I kind of just wanted to post it to show that we should not presume things about others, but that we are all in the same boat. However, I am a firm believer of the Soto Tradition of practice, practice, practice.

Gassho Will

[Rev R]

thanks will

i didn't find it to be as controversial as the disclaimer made it seem. in the end i was just kinda "um...ok."



R

[will]

Anne McQuade (a student of Genpo Roshi) on Brad Warner's Blog posts:

http://www.movedigital.com/go/fallingfr ... iosity.mp3

Gassho

[Jundo]

Hi Paige,

I just want to make clear, if I haven't done so, why I make comments on some other teachers and teachings. Personally, I believe that there are infinite paths up the same mountain we are climbing. (You know, the mountain we climb while going no where). Everyone has to find their path. That kind of thing.

I just need to contrast what I teach around here with other forms of Practice so folks don't misunderstand what I am doing, why I am teaching what I am teaching. Some folks think Zen is Zen (and it is), but their are very different approaches. You can sometimes mix them, but sometimes you can't. Like baseball using tennis equipment.

I just teach what I have been Practicing for 25 years, what I know, what I have faith in and found to be a good way. I think it will also be a good way of Practice for many people. Other ways, taught by other teachers, may be good too. The thing is, though, that you can't really mix 'just sitiing' sometimes with other approaches and philosophies ... if you are playing baseball, bring a bat ... not a tennis racket.

Brad recently had a nice, Bradish quote about this on his Blog ... (He was talking about someone who came to a retreat he led, but wanted to do a type of Practice different from what he was teaching):

If you attend a Dogen Sangha Zazen retreat it means you are agreeing to spend the time doing Dogen Sangha style Zen under a Dogen Sangha teacher’s instructions. This is the same with any retreat. If I go to an Ashtanga Yoga retreat, I expect to do Ashtanga Yoga and I can’t complain that it’s not Iyengar Yoga. I guarantee you that every decent Zen teacher believes that his or her conception of Zazen is the only one that matters. In fact I’d even say that if you find a teacher who does not appear to believe that you should stay away from that person. That’s one of the clearest telltale signs of a teacher who’s no good and will probably rip you off.

Sometimes I criticize certain teachers cause I suspect (as an outsider) that they may selling a bit of snake oil ... But, ultimately, that is not for me to say and I might be wrong. It is only a matter between those teachers and their students, and for the students to decide for themselves.

Infinite roads up the mountain, though some may be dead-ends. However, it is for each climber (a mountain climber to no where ... who IS herself the mountain, but may not realize that) to find out for herself.

Gassho, Jundo