On losing motivation..

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: On losing motivation..

maybe it isn't YOUR lack of 'motivation' as much as it is zazen's 'motivation' to enter the mainstream of your life. Maybe it is zazen's way to say--hey, no cushion for you for a while buddy--not 'till you zazen up your daily morning routine for starters--

This seed planted within me, this karmic seed of practice...there is no denying it will continue to continue to continue

This is very true in my life also. Thank you!
As you say, once the seed is planted, it will continue to grow. There have been times when I have tried denying it, sometimes even for years, even starving it, but in vain. It finds a way back into my life, time after time. I have now surrendered, finally.

And what you write about Zazen's motivation for entering our lives, that's EXACTLY what it feels like. Sound mad, but that's what it's like for me as well. There are some keys to Zazening up one's life. Practicing stillness, silence, peace is one key. Being truly altruistic is another. There are many more found in the eightfold way. The problem is, there's a catch 22 in that the factors that make Zazen natural, spontaneous, are also the results of Zazen. We may sometimes need to expand our views and try new ways, new activities, new parts of practice to purify our minds. Ritual comes to mind and I thought I'd never say that!

/Pontus

[Kyotai]

Re: On losing motivation..

I believe that is why I continued in my cycle of returning to zazen again and again after putting it out of my life, it would always return. It had to. Recently, the more I practice, the more I sense an awareness, or an understanding, I am not grasping it, it is just there. Surrendering to this is a great word to describe my recent resistance, that is, accepting not retreating, and continuing on when I had previously faltered.

Keishin, I too have really benefited from the posts. To your comment, I often would, and still, think about not sitting. That would become a thought which I would follow. If I missed a sit due to my schedule, I would actually get caught up in that thought. Problem being, when I would work, spend time with my son..etc it would be more about when I could sit next, or make up for my missed sit, instead of just being with whatever it is I was doing.

Shawn

[Omoi Otoshi]

On losing motivation..

I try to keep an eye on that when it happens. During the times when sitting is wonderful, rewarding, effortless, it's easy to become addicted to it. It's like a drug. When issues in life feel too hard to deal with, sitting can become an escape from it all. But we can't live our lives sitting like a bump on a log. That is a serious Zen sickness, getting caught in emptiness for egoistical reasons.

/Pontus

[Rich]

Re: On losing motivation..

Keishan, thx for sharing your experience. Makes sense to me.
Motivation- even though it seems crazy at times it seems to work so just do it. So far gone that even monkey mind is ok -)

Give peace a chance- lennon

Motivation is right in front of you so pay attention

[Kyotai]

Re: On losing motivation..

Pontus, what is this zen sickness you mentioned. Simply individuals using zazen as an escape ? I have heard this term used somewhere else..Could someone explain this?

[Madrone]

Re: On losing motivation..

More experienced folks here probably know better than me, but isnt there something about this shikantaza practice that's different from zazen as you originally imagined it? Instead of trying to achieve perfection or clear one's mind, just developing the skill to return to the present? My earlier attempts at meditation all fizzled out because I kept feeling discouraged at my own shortcomings. Now I still feel shortcomings. It I just keep breathing and they fade away / change / come back / go away / quiet down / go away. . .

Shawn, take this fwiw from a father of two (ahem) lively girls and a near obsession for college football. Big kudos to you for finding time to sit with a 15 month old.

[RichardH]

Re: On losing motivation..

Pontus, what is this zen sickness you mentioned. Simply individuals using zazen as an escape ? I have heard this term used somewhere else..Could someone explain this?

You asked Pontus, who can probably explain eloquently, and a teacher can probably answer definitely, but you are also asking an open question here.....

Zen Sickness, or Emptiness sickness... one way of looking at it is that there are two sides to practice, nothing to do, and something to do. Maybe we could call form sickness getting stuck in something to do, and emptiness sickness getting stuck in nothing to do... as in.. "I'm already enlightened, and being rude to my friend is "perfectly imperfect". etc.

Emptiness sickness can also mean fixing on an imagined absolute truth that is "real" and perceiving conventional truth as unreal, with the result of losing ethical perspective and empathy, as you act out of...well, pure egotism, and it doesn't matter what you do, it's o.k. because you "dwell in the absolute"

[Omoi Otoshi]

On losing motivation..

Pontus, what is this zen sickness you mentioned. Simply individuals using zazen as an escape ? I have heard this term used somewhere else..Could someone explain this?

You asked Pontus, who can probably explain eloquently, and a teacher can probably answer definitely, but you are also asking an open question here.....

Zen Sickness, or Emptiness sickness... one way of looking at it is that there are two sides to practice, nothing to do, and something to do. Maybe we could call form sickness getting stuck in something to do, and emptiness sickness getting stuck in nothing to do... as in.. "I'm already enlightened, and being rude to my friend is "perfectly imperfect". etc.

Emptiness sickness can also mean fixing on an imagined absolute truth that is "real" and perceiving conventional truth as unreal, with the result of losing ethical perspective and empathy, as you act out of...well, pure egotism, and it doesn't matter what you do, it's o.k. because you "dwell in the absolute"

I am myself relatively inexperienced in these matters, just wanted to offer a word of caution not to neglect the kids, wife, dog, work etc only to dwell in emptiness.
I have absolutely nothing to add, nothing to take away from what you said!

(English is not my first language and sometimes things are intuitive rather than crystal clear, so I seldomly explain my experience or understanding very eloquently!)

/Pontus

[michaeljc]

Re: On losing motivation..

I know little about this emptiness/Zen sickness as I have had minimal contact with steady practitioners. But, my interpretation is that it is a persistent psychological state. Going on what I feel in my own practice I sense it would be very easy to sit more and more resulting in a lackadaisical indifferent attitude regarding the hard realities of bread winning ie work – in particular physical work. One could easily become a dropout in terms of family responsibility and the commercial realities of life. If I am right about this then it is a dangerous situation unless we are single and prepared to live the life of a spiritual tramp or bludger. I am not implying here that being a genuine sage in this modern age is impossible. This is still doable and respectable but very rare. Genuine monks fall into this category.

In short I will be watching myself very carefully so as not to fall into this trap. Work matters, as does life-balance (for most of us). This is why I have said in other posts that ‘attachments are healthy’ ie those that do no harm.

Just my views right now

m

[Rich]

Re: On losing motivation..

Michael, I guess what you say is possible but 15-30 minute sittings morning and evening doesn't seem too much. Anyway getting zen sickness isn't dependent on how much yoou sit. Making some special state or being attached to some zen concepts is the sickness. Have heard many teachers say zen is ordinary everyday mind, just this right now.

[Omoi Otoshi]

On losing motivation..

If you're a monk or on a Sesshin, sitting attentively for 10-16 hours per day is your responsability, your job, and no sign of any sickness. If you're a single parent and neglect your kids by sitting for hours, then you have to ask yourself what your true practice really is. 15-30 minutes of formal Zazen when the kids have gone to bed might suffice in that case.

/Pontus

[Jinyo]

Re: On losing motivation..

I have found these posts very helpful - particularly Keishin's. I like the idea that zazen is flowing - flowing into everyday life.

For me - big problem is that when I feel I'm struggling with sitting - I turn to reading. There is nothing wrong with reading - essential
at times to understand precepts, etc but I can't help feeling I do this to shore up my 'shaky' practice. It's like I'm trying to intellectually convince
myself that this is the right way to go for me - that zazen is an authentic part of my journey.

When zazen goes well the doubts disappear - but then they return - helpful to know most people struggle with this.

[Kyotai]

Re: On losing motivation..

Willow, thank you for putting into words what I could not. Like you, I turn to reading (treeleaf forums), but also youtube videos "searching Zen or Buddhism" to reafirm my practice. I often ask myself, why do I need to confirm what I already know or feel is the right direction. My only explanation, is that I live in a part of the world, like many, that is very materialistic, very -all about me-. When I go outside, I am bombarded with these messages of needing to get better, needing to make more money, achieve something special, be the best. Sometimes when I get caught up in that, my meditation practice serves to bring me back, but hearing or reading thoughts from others with like minded paths always makes me feel more centred and perhaps reafirming..I feel its similar to going to my meditation weekly group, or talking to my friend chris about buddhism. It is seeking a community to share, or hear about that which helps me stay here and now. Maybe that isn't similar to your experience, but I identify with your post in that way.

Thanks

Shawn

[Jinyo]

Re: On losing motivation..

Shawn - you wrote,

'Why do I feel the need to confirm what I already know or feel is the right direction?'

I'm sure we all have this inner dialogue of uncertainty and the need to re-affirm our belief/faith in the direction we are taking.
We do live in a very materialist world and there are always material concerns. I think to deny this probably results in the 'zen sickness'
mentioned. I guess we strive to find a way of making peace with the the 'self' that exists in the material world (and all the demands it puts upon us) and the part of us that searches
for spirituality and a fleeting sense of the spaciousness of 'no-self'. I'm sure these two aspects aren't mutually exclusive - and can flow in the way
that's been talked about - but it's not easy to keep the flow going!

Yes - it's good to have a sense of community. There are no Zen centres (here in the UK) near where I live - so re-assuring to talk with folks on this site.

Best wishes,

Willow

[Ray]

Re: On losing motivation..

Motivation comes and comes. Just like everything in life. Spring leaves us, winters comes...winter leaves us buds begin to come back...such is the nature of our world.

Do not try to manufacture motivation, because then it will be fake and you will be missing a very important lesson. How to just allow yourself to be when you lose all motivation. It is very easy to sit and be excited about practice when we are filled with motivation and vigor, but this is simply another state of mind.

We also have to learn to sit with those states of mind we rather not sit with, and this is where the "difficult" part of practice begins to come in. We are always looking for something else, looking for that state of mind we had last week where our practice went perfect and we were sure that we were one breath away from becoming the next Buddha...but what about right now?

No motivation, not energy, no desire, sit with that. Allow yourself to fully experience that. We always try to run away from such emotions and thoughts without ever really seeing and understanding where they come from? Who is it that has lost motivation? Who is it that wishes it to come back?



Thanks so much for this post because the replies will really help further my practice. The reply above actually draws me to the cushion to just sit.

In addition, iI think This is what jundo means when he Says there iw no bad zazen.

Gassho

Ray





It is very difficult to sit during a period of lack of motivation, but it is during that very period that the Dharma is so available if we allow ourselves to watch and stay present to our experience...

A monk once went to see the Abbot of the temple and told him "I am very discouraged. What should I do?" The Abbot replied, "encourage others."

Forgive me if what I said is not of much help

May your practice go well