Labeling thoughts joko

[nealc]

I've been reading 'nothing special' and 'everyday zen' and joko beck seems to make a case for not just noticing thoughts but labeling them before allowing them to go. I've been trying it and I think it's a good practice, but I wanted to know what others think about it? I haven't come across it in other books so far on Jundo's list, I did read it in some essay by Myla kabat-zinn. Are there other teachers who recommend it? Does Dogen or any classical writers mention it?

Thanks
_|_
Neal

[chicanobudista]

Re: Labeling thoughts joko

I'm away from my computer, but if you search this forum you will find some threads where Jundo talks about this form of meditation. IIRC, Gil Fronsdal talks about it in his lectures. Here is one example :

http://www.insightmeditationcenter.org/ ... editation/

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[Ryumon]

Re: Labeling thoughts joko

I've been reading 'nothing special' and 'everyday zen' and joko beck seems to make a case for not just noticing thoughts but labeling them before allowing them to go. I've been trying it and I think it's a good practice, but I wanted to know what others think about it? I haven't come across it in other books so far on Jundo's list, I did read it in some essay by Myla kabat-zinn. Are there other teachers who recommend it? Does Dogen or any classical writers mention it?

It's certainly a common practice in Vipassana. But I don't think it fits in with Dogenese Zen very well.

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Labeling thoughts joko

It's not the kind of soup Rev Jundo and Taigu are serving in this establishment and it shouldn't be confused with Shikantaza.
Other than that, I did it 15 years ago and liked it very much. I think there are far worse ways to spend your time. But I'd view it more as an interesting and sometimes helpful psychological experiment to see what goes on in your mind that you aren't normally aware of, and not so much as Zen practice. But then again, everything is Zen practice... :wink:

[andyZ]

Re: Labeling thoughts joko

Hi All,
One can think of PPE 8 that Fugen posted is similar to what you're talking about, in a way at least. We notice and label our negative emotions and try to transform them into positive.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4331

[Nindo]

Re: Labeling thoughts joko

I once spent a whole sesshin on labelling thoughts. It helped me to understand how my mind works. At that stage, I would not have been able to sit Shikantaza; I had to understand some of my thought patterns first. If you find yourself going through the same patterns over and over again, or operating from certain beliefs and assumptions towards self/ others, it may help to clarify and let go.

[RichardH]

Re: Labeling thoughts joko

If there are very compelling thoughts that have me sucked into content, like some narrative that raises or diminishes the value of "me",... calling it can break the identification and bring things back to simple presence.

.... Not sure if this accords with what is dished up here. :|

[Hogen]

Re: Labeling thoughts joko

I've been reading 'nothing special' and 'everyday zen' and joko beck seems to make a case for not just noticing thoughts but labeling them before allowing them to go. I've been trying it and I think it's a good practice, but I wanted to know what others think about it? I haven't come across it in other books so far on Jundo's list, I did read it in some essay by Myla kabat-zinn. Are there other teachers who recommend it? Does Dogen or any classical writers mention it?

It's certainly a common practice in Vipassana. But I don't think it fits in with Dogenese Zen very well.

agreed. labeling means attaching to the thoughts rather than letting them arise and subside.

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Labeling thoughts joko

If there are very compelling thoughts that have me sucked into content, like some narrative that raises or diminishes the value of "me",... calling it can break the identification and bring things back to simple presence.

True!

When I'm stuck with an unusually persistant image/thought/idea, that keeps coming back again and again, it sometimes helps to take a good look at it and examine what it stands for and where it is coming from, before letting it go and returning to Shikantaza. But in my view, that is different from the dedicated thought labeling described by Joko Beck Roshi, which is great, but should not be confused with Shikantaza.

[Kaishin]

Re: Labeling thoughts joko

But in my view, that is different from the dedicated thought labeling described by Joko Beck Roshi, which is great, but should not be confused with Shikantaza.

Yes, I think it is different too. More akin to the thought-chasing that eventually drops back to ZZ' as described by Uchiyama Roshi

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Labeling thoughts joko

Yes, I think it is different too. More akin to the thought-chasing that eventually drops back to ZZ' as described by Uchiyama Roshi

Yes, with the difference that the thought-chasing is more like day dreaming, caching on to a thought that leads to another thought that leads to a whole train of thoughts, images and emotions, without you realizing it immediately. When thought labeling, at least when I did it, you mindfully "watch" a thought arise, study it, label it, let it drift away, return to awarness, watch another thought arise and so on. I believe back when I started doing Zazen without a teacher and without much instruction, it helped me get some insight into how my minds works, what issues I carried with me that I wasn't aware of, how thoughts arose and drifted away. It may also have improved my ability to concentrate, my awareness and watchfulness for when thoughts start to carry me away, I don't know. One risk with this practice that I noticed when I started doing more classic Zazen is that you focus all of your awareness on the inside of your mind, watching for thought to arise, instead of the non-grasping, open awareness of Shikantaza. Maybe one could start with thought labeling to get into a calmer state of mind, before moving on to Shikantaza, instead of counting breaths or focusing on posture? It's an ingredient that I, from my very limited experience, guess would work well in some kind of soup, as long as one is aware of the fact that it isn't the standard Treeleaf or even Soto soup and that according to most Soto teachers, it really isn't Shikantaza.

[RichardH]

Re: Labeling thoughts joko

Well sometimes for me things are just clear, thoughts come and go like any other sensation, and awareness is grounded as the cushion, the floor, room, etc. There is no checking back, no narrative, and so forth, and no dukkha.

Sometimes the whole room is within "my story" . The thoughts are invisible because I am absorbed in them. I think I'm "just sitting" but there is something fishy, something uncooked. It is that stealthy background picture of "my life" that is containing everything. So that is when calling it out helps because then I am just in the stew as the stew. Then it's not in the stew anymore. ....if that makes sense. ... tired this morning. :lol:

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Labeling thoughts joko

Well sometimes for me things are just clear, thoughts come and go like any other sensation, and awareness is grounded as the cushion, the floor, room, etc. There is no checking back, no narrative, and so forth, and no dukkha.

Sometimes the whole room is within "my story" . The thoughts are invisible because I am absorbed in them. I think I'm "just sitting" but there is something fishy, something uncooked. It is that stealthy background picture of "my life" that is containing everything. So that is when calling it out helps because then I am just in the stew as the stew. Then it's not in the stew anymore. ....if that makes sense. ... tired this morning. :lol:

Ah... Lovely description. For me, your words are a poem!


Something fishy in the Stew
-Kojip

Sometimes, for me, things are just clear
Thoughts come and go like any other sensation
Awareness is grounded as the cushion, the floor, room
There is no checking back, no narrative, no dukkha.

Sometimes the whole room is within "my story"
The thoughts are invisible because I am absorbed in them
I think I'm "just sitting" but there is something fishy
something uncooked

It is that stealthy background picture of "my life"
that is containing everything
That is when calling it out helps,
because then I am just in the stew
as the stew
Then it is not in the stew anymore

Thank you,
/Pontus

[Taigu]

Re: Labeling thoughts joko

True, wonderful words...

And yet,



just, this, now




T.

[RichardH]

Re: Labeling thoughts joko

Thank you. Words, wonderful. ...... consistency of practice..... uh.... maybe not so wonderful ops: