Teeth Together

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  • Geika
    Treeleaf Unsui
    • Jan 2010
    • 4984

    Teeth Together

    Dogen and Gudo Wafu both advise one to hold their teeth together while sitting zazen (while the tongue is placed gently on the roof of the mouth, slightly behind the teeth). I have no problem with tongue placement, as I am *slightly* familiar in some Daoist practices, but the teeth placement causes me strain. I don't know if this is normal, or if it is because of some extensive orthodontic work I had when I was young, changing the interior alignment of my teeth, and also the size of my mouth! (It had to be expanded because my mouth was too small to house all of my teeth as they grew in. :lol

    So, anyway, it feels awkward for me to place my teeth even slightly together while sitting. It causes a lot of tension in my jaw. It also gives me the sensation of grinding my teeth together, along with not knowing whether these teachers meant that all the teeth come together, or just the front or back teeth...

    What does everyone do with their mouth?

    I know that it is not the most important aspect of zazen, but I am curious, and it is starting to distract me from actual practice!

    Edit: The most natural position my mouth falls into is having my entire tongue up against the roof of my mouth, causing a kind of vacuum seal once all the air is out of my mouth. My teeth are very close together, but they are not touching.

    I'm sure this will be regarded as a very nit-picky topic. :roll:
    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.
  • Kaishin
    Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 2322

    #2
    Re: Teeth Together

    I keep my teeth together and tongue up against the top row.

    I think the main idea is to limit salivation so you don't have to swallow constantly while sitting. So maybe it doesn't really matter that much.

    If you want to be a stickler, maybe you could use a mouthguard to have your mouth closed comfortably?
    Thanks,
    Kaishin (開心, Open Heart)
    Please take this layman's words with a grain of salt.

    Comment

    • Jundo
      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
      • Apr 2006
      • 40325

      #3
      Re: Teeth Together

      Hi,

      Dogen was not an Orthodontist.

      There should be no strain! What it means, basically, is keep your mouth closed, teeth (basically) together without strain, and breathe through the nose (something I have trouble with because of allergies ... and I sometimes end up mouth breathing nonetheless.)

      The tongue on the roof of the mouth behind the teeth has a practical purpose ... for it blocks the salivary glands and prevents constant saliva flow/swallowing.

      Gassho, J
      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

      Comment

      • michaeljc
        Member
        • May 2011
        • 148

        #4
        Re: Teeth Together

        Ha - By sheer coincidence I was thinking about this very subject while sitting tonight. I recalled Dogen’s teeth touching guidance and tried for a while until finally coming to the conclusion; ‘Sorry Dogen, this just don’t feel right, I will follow my instinct on this one”.
        Cheers
        m

        Comment

        • Shujin
          Treeleaf Unsui
          • Feb 2010
          • 1094

          #5
          Re: Teeth Together

          I have trouble with clenching my jaw & such during other times, and I've found that I can't accomplish keeping the teeth together without tension. My methods are in line with Amelia & Michael. Maybe I'll give it another go on the teeth touching... or maybe not.

          gassho,
          Shujin
          Kyōdō Shujin 教道 守仁

          Comment

          • Taigu
            Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest
            • Aug 2008
            • 2710

            #6
            Re: Teeth Together

            The standard method is to keep teeth touching, well, I am very much like you guys, and I don't follow Dogen on that one because I am also prone to creating too much tension in the jaws. So...Do as you feel comfortable on that one!!!

            Taigu

            Comment

            • michaeljc
              Member
              • May 2011
              • 148

              #7
              Re: Teeth Together

              I have just thought of an intriguing possibility. The Japanese have a rather distinct jaw structure. This in the modern age results in crowding of the teeth. A very famous Japanese model (??) modelled with natural uneven teeth resulting in ladies being comfortable with the problem for a decade or more. Recently this changed and orthodontists in Japan are making a killing. Maybe Dogen could maintain a relaxed jaw with teeth touching.
              m

              Comment

              • Heisoku
                Member
                • Jun 2010
                • 1338

                #8
                Re: Teeth Together

                Is this why there is a similar 'smile' on the face of Tibetan tradition meditators? To keep the jaw relaxed?
                Heisoku 平 息
                Every day is a journey, and the journey itself is home. (Basho)

                Comment

                • Geika
                  Treeleaf Unsui
                  • Jan 2010
                  • 4984

                  #9
                  Re: Teeth Together

                  Thank you all for your input. I will have to sit more and find my sweet spot on this one.

                  Since we don't concentrate on anything in particular when practicing shikantaza, like the breath or dantien, I guess it isn't really worth worrying about whether or not my teeth are exactly as Dogen's would have been. Teeth placement =/= enlightenment.

                  With my lackadaisical experience in some Taoist techniques (from back when I wanted to live forever :roll, I sometimes get hung up on technicalities-- like if I don't properly circulate my chi around my microcosmic orbit, yadda, yadda, I won't become an awesome super-master at life :roll: ... Being an anxious person, I can sometimes worry that not doing something in a textbook fashion will prevent me from reaching my goal.

                  My rakusu is really helping me get over that. Somehow I am learning to be technical without caring about being technical... :shock: Thank you, Taigu. _/_

                  Gassho,

                  Amelia
                  求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
                  I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

                  Comment

                  • Jundo
                    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                    • Apr 2006
                    • 40325

                    #10
                    Re: Teeth Together

                    I am not an orthodontist (although I could use one myself), but I always thought that Dogen is shown with an unusual protruding jawline in his portraits ...





                    This is another case for the Lute String: Keep one's mouth neither too slack nor too tight and strained ... then just forget about it!

                    Gassho, J
                    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                    Comment

                    • Geika
                      Treeleaf Unsui
                      • Jan 2010
                      • 4984

                      #11
                      Re: Teeth Together

                      Originally posted by Jundo
                      ...This is another case for the Lute String: Keep one's mouth neither too slack nor too tight and strained ... then just forget about it!

                      Gassho, J
                      _/_ Thanks for the simple reminder that I have somehow forgotten.

                      Amelia
                      求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
                      I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

                      Comment

                      • Hoyu
                        Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 2020

                        #12
                        Re: Teeth Together

                        Michael wrote:
                        The Japanese have a rather distinct jaw structure. This in the modern age results in crowding of the teeth. A very famous Japanese model (??) modelled with natural uneven teeth resulting in ladies being comfortable with the problem for a decade or more
                        The Japanese have a term for the cuteness of "crooked" teeth. As can be seen if you do a google image search under Yaeba
                        Personally, I find yaeba to be very charming

                        While on the subject.....
                        Historically in Japan there is a custom of dying the teeth black, known as Ohaguro

                        Just wait until the gothic kids see this! :shock: It could become quite the rage here is the states as well :lol:

                        Gassho,
                        John
                        Ho (Dharma)
                        Yu (Hot Water)

                        Comment

                        • Shokai
                          Treeleaf Priest
                          • Mar 2009
                          • 6394

                          #13
                          Re: Teeth Together

                          Looks to me as she has eaten to many servings of squid ink pasta :lol:
                          合掌,生開
                          gassho, Shokai

                          仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

                          "Open to life in a benevolent way"

                          https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

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