Things are different now

[JohnsonCM]

I have a question, mostly to those of you in relationships. Since I began this practice, things are much different then they were before. I have a new outlook on life, issues that arise, problems and such. I prefer to, and really now find myself doing this without much effort, taking things much more in stride then I used to. I don’t get all bent out of shape, or depressed or feel like life is specifically making itself more difficult just for me. I also don’t get so upset with others when they don’t get things done, or forget things, because I look at the world much more from a place of “suchness” than I used to.

For example: I can’t tell you how often my wife used to give me a hard time when the dishes weren’t done and she was working long hours, but I got home earlier then she did. Now, I work two jobs and still have to drive the boys to practice and get dinner done most nights, and when I have a spare second – even though it would be much easier for her to do the dishes while I sleep for a few hours before going to my second job – I wash the dishes that are, inevitably left in the sink from the night before. It is what it is.

My question is this. I am more like this now because, I believe, I have been practicing our way, and it is a natural progression. My wife is not a practitioner of the Way, and though I’m sure that’s not the sole reason why she gets so uptight, I believe it has something to do with the reason that she can’t deal as well with unexpected changes or issues. So how do I better react to her? She gets sooo angry when things go wrong. She called me on my cell phone today to argue with me about the fact that I didn’t take the trash out today (I forgot, and though it is trash day every Thursday, it’s sometimes tough for me to remember since all the days tend to blur together when you work nights too!) and I can understand her being upset about it, but yelling?? I just seems so unnecessary to me. It aggravates me because it seems like such a pointless exercise to get angry about. Now, this isn’t to say that I can’t improve and get the garbage out, but I think there are more constructive ways to do this.

So what to do? I can’t talk to her from a Buddhist standpoint, I tried that once or twice (because that is an integral part of my decision making paradigm) but she said she doesn’t believe in that and I respect that. How do you, for those of you with non-buddhist spouses or girlfriends / boyfriends, work with your significant others when your view points on things differ?

[Jinyu]

Re: Things are different now

So what to do? I can’t talk to her from a Buddhist standpoint, I tried that once or twice (because that is an integral part of my decision making paradigm) but she said she doesn’t believe in that and I respect that. How do you, for those of you with non-buddhist spouses or girlfriends / boyfriends, work with your significant others when your view points on things differ?

Looks like we have the same partner... :mrgreen:
I don't try to "make her see things the way I do" anymore... tried so many times, and so many times I felt to see that her point of view maybe also just a point of view... but it is rooted in a reality that kept repeating...
Personally, what I wanted when I tried to correct « her wrong views » about how things are or aren't, was to comfort « my » little views, very egoistically. Falling to take the opportunity to deeply communicate with her, always trying to find a good reason for things to be that way or a good « buddhist analyse » of the situation... just meaningless.

To « touch suchness » in our daily lives is the great gift of the practice, to return to the place we never left... And we benefit so much everyday, but, for me, the problem is to not grasp on that too. To not construct a « cathedral of thoughts » and notion from that.

To jump beyond the feeling of « knowing better reality » than anyone else, and to also integrate these difficult moments (also mainly about dish washing and laundry).

To Answer your question, her point of view his also a point of view, a vision of reality, that is the reality I have to deal with.
I realized that the root of all this wasn't really the way she sees things but the way I did things. Or maybe the way we communicate sometimes (as always been a kind of a problem for me... I showed it too often in our Sangha).
My partner has been a lot of times a real teacher. When I'm loosing myself in "Buddhisto-metaphisical" considerations she is often the yelling tiger who allows me to return to "real-reality" to "suchness" (just vain words but I'm sure you understood). The main help she seomtimes gives me is when she ask: "Why?"
We Buddhists, Zennists,... are so often in our little word with our own references and notions... sometimes to take the time to ask ourselves "why?" is a true jewel...

Mostly useless words but I hope it helps,

have a very nice day !
Gassho,
Jinyu

[Taigu]

Re: Things are different now

Well well welll...It sounds that there is a bit of a problem here, and in my life, I had my share of being yelled at and bullied by a wife just because I let it happen. I used to do all the cooking, most of the cleaning, on top of all the teaching...I would not anymore. Buddhist or not. Sorry baby. And if the girls are doing everything while the guy gets his feet up, they should not let it happen. Living together is about sharing chores and stuff. Also respect people's space and ears...

My partner is not Buddhist. She is but she is not. It is a cultural thing in Japan. She could not care less. And it works very well. I leave Buddhism at our bedroom door, hardly mention it or talk about it. No need. She appreciates my patience and the way I can also be very straightforward and not allow her to take control with nonsense. She is a great teacher too. Keeps me down to earth. It is so far a very beautiful choregraphy. We had a few downs but it just lasted a few days. Pretty normal, really.

good luck.


gassho


Taigu

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Things are different now

Generally speaking, we do share all the chores. It's not so much a question of that, as it is dealing with things when they go wrong. My response is more to take it in stride and say, "well, it is what it is, nothing to be done about it now, we'll just try to remember not to let that happen that way again. Next time, we'll do it a bit different." Her response is to freak out, yell about things.

Another example to illustrate: This morning - as I said before, I forgot to take out the trash. I got yelled at, and she was angry because "how can we expect our son to get himself together at school, if we can't do it at home?" I get it, Thursday - trash day. But I'd slept probably 6 hours over the prevous two or three days and wasn't thinking really straight when I got up this morning - even though I got a full night's sleep last night - we were in a rush. But no reason to yell at me, I think. Especially given that the night before, our child hurt himself on a curling iron my wife forgot to unplug, and my response to her was to look her in the eye and say, "please, from now on, don't leave your things plugged in like that, or at least tell me that you've done so, that way I know."

So different in our reaction - so, how to come together???

[Taigu]

Re: Things are different now

Chill out, date her and have a meal together...
No kidding, you have got to work on these things.

gassho


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[Seiryu]

Re: Things are different now

Similar things for me to.

I don't try to talk from a "Buddhist" standpoint. I try to express things from my standpoint. As much corrupted by Buddhism that is, it is different. It is very easy to be dismiss when one brings up religion and philosophy.

People have their ups and downs, and little quirks. We all do.

unfortunately, I do not think there is anything I can say that will help you react better. Only you know your partner enough, only you can find the solution.

At the same time, be thankful for opportunities such as these. They are a great way to manifest the Bodhisattva vow, not in theory, but in our lives.

Sorry I cannot be of much help.

[tedmac]

Re: Things are different now

I had some similar issues with my ex-wife; thankfully, my now wife and I are more simpatico on such issues. Eventually, I realized that one reason my ex would yell is precisely because I would not. She saw the physical manifestation of anger as a sign of engagement, and when I didn't yell or show deep anger she thought I didn't care about her feelings or that I was in zen-land, versus being in place in the moment. I can't say for sure that your situation is the same--but be sure she knows that your calm exterior is not disengaged passivity.
Ted

[andyZ]

Re: Things are different now

Christopher,

From my personal experience I can say that one of the most important things in a relationship is a dialogue. It's important to speak up and express your dissatisfactions etc, however, it shouldn't be done in the heat of the moment. The things we learn about right speech and right intentions are just common sense which can and should be applied in our lives. I also stopped brining up Buddhism in every conversation even though my thoughts and conclusions are based on that point of view. I found that mentioning Buddhism may actually alienate the person. Thanks to my practice I'm also trying to see other person's point of view more often, however "wrong" it may seem to me and try to be compassionate but not patronizing. I think the last one is a fine balance though.

I like Taigu's advice on this. Some of us tend to overanalyze things, sometimes a night out is all that's needed

[Shogen]

Re: Things are different now

CM
Being a Buddhist is not about what you log in your minds memory banks. To be a Buddhist is to bring the way into your every day life. Life is not always a smooth ride there are bumps with which we all must deal. To deal with things as a buddhist is bringing the teachings to life through your everyday actions. Is that not what what it's all about? What teachings apply to the situation you find difficult right now? Where is your anger? Where is the self? What is selfless love? What is this thing called ego? Good luck
Gassho Shogen

[Kaishin]

Re: Things are different now

Have you asked her why she yells?

[ghop]

Re: Things are different now

So what to do? I can’t talk to her from a Buddhist standpoint, I tried that once or twice (because that is an integral part of my decision making paradigm) but she said she doesn’t believe in that and I respect that. How do you, for those of you with non-buddhist spouses or girlfriends / boyfriends, work with your significant others when your view points on things differ?

First of all, I would drop that illusion of a "Buddhist standpoint." See how it is causing dukkha? The point of Buddhism is that there is precisely no point on which to stand. The barrier you're up against isn't your wife's reactions. It's you. Right now, she is the greatest teacher you could have (sorry Jundo and Taigu ops: ) because she is showing you where you are unwilling to let go of an idea of a self.

Do you really want her to see things your way? Who says you are right?

Man, all that's so easy to say. My wife and I have been gnawing each other lately because we have family coming to stay with us later this month and the house just can't be clean enough. I've been cleaning the fridge, scrubing bathroom tiles with a toothbrush, dusting, etc. I feel like they can take my mess or leave it. Heck, they're family.

And she still gets uneasy when I bow before my zafu.

But I try to remember, if she's not happy my practice has gone awry. No zen, no buddha, no ism, no self, no anything whatsoever, should be more important to me than my wife's happines. Ever. There are alot of religious people who are "doing it right" in the zendo, yet failing miserably in the home. We have to balance our isms with care. There's no such thing as familyism or spouseism.

Taigu said it perfectly. Show her she's important. She's been through alot. Don't be a door mat. But make more love. Massage her feet. Bring her flowers. Soften those hard places before they turn into walls.

gassho
Greg

[Hogen]

Re: Things are different now

I find that I'm usually the more calm one of the two of us. My wife is quicker to raise her voice. I'm probably more quiet, but raise it if necessary. She thinks I do the laundry wrong (I pack the washer too full); I think she does the dishes wrong (she packs the dishwasher haphazardly).

I don't critique her anymore on it because it does no good. I don't hear her critique me on the laundry much anymore either. We are human and we have our foibles. We live with these foibles of others because that's who they are.

Yelling is often a mask for stress and exhaustion. It takes so much energy to yell even though we are exhausted. Rather than defend your actions or inactions; tell her how her response makes you feel.

[Yugen]

Re: Things are different now

Wonderful advice. My perspective on the Buddhist practice is that we become more open to the experience and suffering of others (it's hardest with those who are closest to us)... and we work with it. The risk is in becoming a doormat for others' gripes/dissatisfactions.

Kodo Sawaki had a great metric for measuring one's practice - 'what does the family think of daddy's practice?' - I would be all full of myself for following the Buddha's path and say "but I am working so hard at listening, being patient and honest.... blah blah blah...." and my sons, when asked, would say "Dad's being a jerk..." Pretty stark metrics, eh?

OK, I'm going back to cleaning shower tiles for the family Thanksgiving visit. And I am taking my wife out for dinner tonight BTW.

Awesome discussion, thanks for bringing it up Christopher et al. Maybe what we really need is a "Commiserating husbands thread." Chop wood, scrub toilets. :lol:

gassho,
Yugen

[Jundo]

Re: Things are different now

I sometimes tell folks that questions about time, space, birth, death and the 'Meaning of life' ... are NO PROBLEM, PIECE OF CAKE! But questions about relationships, marriage and the opposite sex? Now, there's the REAL MYSTERY! :shock:

Heck, why do you think the Buddha thought it easier to just move out of the house and live with other men? 8)

All I have learned in 20 years of marriage is to be patient ... be VERY patient of each others' perceived faults, be patient of hard times or bumpy times. There may be a time to call the divorce lawyer, but only after making thrice sure and thrice sure again. In most cases, if one can sail through the stormy weather, one's relationship will come out stronger and richer, and one's love deeper (not always).

Mina, my so patient and tolerant wife, loves to say things to me like "Hey, Mr. Zen Master, when you are done getting Satori, take out the trash" or "Hey, what would all your students say if they saw how you leave your dirty socks on the floor!?" or "Hey Buddha, stop yelling at the TV remote control" ops:

She says I am much better than 25 years ago ... so something about this Practice must be helping.

Mina sits Zazen (her family were Nichiren Buddhists, by the way, but like most Japanese, don't practice even that so much), but I think her 'moving Zazen' is her twice weekly Ai-ki-do practice. There, little 95 pound (40 kilo) Mina throws a bunch of giant German and Russian guys twice her size around the room like they were sacks of rice. This keeps great peace in my house, as she can substitute her frustrations with me by throwing them.



That is all I know.

Gassho, J

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Things are different now

So, to sum up (and with a little help from the 'cut' and 'paste' function of my computer), here's what I learned:

Chill out, date her and have a meal together...
No kidding, you have got to work on these things.
People have their ups and downs, and little quirks.
To deal with things as a buddhist is bringing the teachings to life through your everyday actions.
I would drop that illusion of a "Buddhist standpoint." See how it is causing dukkha? The point of Buddhism is that there is precisely no point on which to stand. The barrier you're up against isn't your wife's reactions. It's you. Right now, she is the greatest teacher you could have

And, of course, to enroll her in an Ai-ki-do class :mrgreen:

I suppose the best thing for me is to try and understand that her reaction is justified to her and to try not to allow my thoughts of "yelling is pointless" to come to the fore too much. After all, I'm sure she feels truly justified in yelling, or else she wouldn't do it, huh? Thanks.

By the way - as an aside - I sometimes still catch myself saying things like "from a Buddhist standpoint" or some such, and it sometimes takes the occassional reminder from everyone here that there is no Buddhist standpoint, only the standpoint that I currently have, which addmittedly has some Buddhist flavor to it. Thank you all.