Preaching and related thoughts

[Sleeps]

Recently I was in a chatroom and a fellow that apparently grew up buddhist brought up Buddhism. He'd run off Buddha's sayings such as "people are where they are because of karma in this and past lives", "the body can be divided into 32 parts" and a few other things. I was trying to question the value of him saying any of this since Buddha said to not take his word for granted and to practice yourself and see for yourself what he was trying to get at. Even though he apparently agreed he continued running off popular sayings I've read many times without anybody showing the least bit of interest. I stopped talking to him when I realized that he was talking more for the sake of talking and I personally got the feeling that anything I would say further would be trying to out do him so I completely stopped since, well, as far as I understand zazen now, doing more would be a expression of trying to force in some "other" feeling that I'd find acceptable, being winning for the sake of striving toward some "perfect" state.

I'm not a Buddhist but the question I have is, is there even a point to ever engaging in a activity like running off buddhist sayings if buddhism can only be "understood" experientaly? I came here after reading a lot, not getting much more out of it then intellectual cannon fodder but remembering the suggestion that you can doubt whatever buddhism has to say but at least try its practices to see if you can understand it experientialy if you want.

Is it enough that for now I'm only interested in learning "correct" sitting? I mean I'd like to be able to make a meaningful impact in the world, I help people out when I am able to but for now, I still don't have any conclusive insight that I can elaborate in detail on how the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th noble truths would be correct without a shadow of a doubt so I don't even see zazen as a sitting or life practice to be genuine vehicle for acceptance atleast of whatever is, clearly such acceptence would be valuable, I have yet to personally experience it so I rarely mention much stuff about buddhism in regards of suggesting someone else might try it to help themselves....Is my motivation for being here even genuine? If not, what would be a genuine motivation for wanting to take up a buddhist practice?

Any cup emptying regarding anything in this post would be appreciated. Including possible cup emptying of cup emptying, might not even see that in the right context, and if not, I just asked something to be done that I don't even understand. xD .

Yeah, any comments would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Greg

[ghop]

Re: Preaching and related thoughts

Hello Greg, Greg here :shock:

Two Gregs in one sangha. Hmm. Which one is the real Greg? Neither...Both...Wrong answer! (You can tell I have nothing to offer...too much free time = too many pointless posts. Bear with me.

I'm not a Buddhist

No worries. Neither was Gautama 8)

Is it enough that for now I'm only interested in learning "correct" sitting?

Well...yeah. That is the main practice, all of life rising from the zafu when you rise. Just sitting. Just driving. Just obsessing. Just this. But if you are like me, and we already share the same name haha, if you are like me, sooner or later your "interest" in sitting may turn into a kind of annoyance with sitting, that will bounce back and forth between days you can't wait to "take your seat" and days you'd like to set your zafu on fire. Best to drop all concepts of "correct" sitting. Just sit. Of course, that doesn't mean that there aren't precise details about "how to" just sit. You're at the right place! Great teachers here.

Is my motivation for being here even genuine?

Only you know.

[quote="Sleeps"]If not, what would be a genuine motivation for wanting to take up a buddhist practice?[/quote

What is your motivation for eating breakfast? For breathing?

I just got to a point where I was tired of faking it. Life, I mean. There is no practice as honest and revelatory as zazen. You can't fake that. Sooner or later your guts will spill out in front of your eyes and you will have to deal with all that stuff. It's messy and totally worth it. You gain a sense of your self that can't be shaken. It is a worth that has nothing to do with production. You feel good just to be here. Basically, you make friends with yourself. You give yourself a break. And along with that, you give other people a break too. Compassion: accepting what is, as is, and then out of that space, making a positive contribution.

gassho
Greg

[louis]

Re: Preaching and related thoughts

is there even a point to ever engaging in a activity like running off buddhist sayings if buddhism can only be "understood" experientaly?

Hi Greg hows it going? Discussing or reading about the practice is valuable, but of course reading or talking about it is not the same as practice. I can read all the golf books in the library and they will ultimately be helpful but nothing beats going to the driving range and hitting a few buckets. Same here. Now have a good sit.

Best,
Louis

[natezenmaster]

Re: Preaching and related thoughts

Greetings friend,

.. the question I have is, is there even a point to ever engaging in a activity like running off buddhist sayings if buddhism can only be "understood" experientaly?

Well... isn't reading an experience? Or posting on a forum? All things are experience, even the experience of dreaming about experience instead of experiencing experience.. LOL... regardless of religion, you will find people from all walks and disciplines that will talk for the point of talking or will talk to make themselves feel better or look better in the eyes of others or whatever. Prosthelytizing... preaching... it comes from everywhere. Perhaps that is your posting friend's motivation or perhaps not... perhaps he hopes the quotes will catch on with someone. We are thinking beings... if you want to catch a mind, you have to make a distinction or create a thought in their minds that is outside of direct experience - other than the direct experience of thinking. If all we ever said was "sit and experience" then Buddhism might have 3 members worldwide and lots of self help publishers would be far poorer...

"In the sky, there is no distinction of east and west; people create distinctions out of their own minds and then believe them to be true." ~ Buddha

Even that statement makes a distinction in order to show that our distinctions are not true... LOL... so it goes. We are thinking beings, we are sentient beings. They don't come separately for us. Therefore, we need sayings and writings and so on... it is part of our experience.

" I'd like to be able to make a meaningful impact in the world, I help people out when I am able to but for now, I still don't have any conclusive insight that I can elaborate in detail on.."

Welcome to the club, brother!.. The strange thing about a practice is that you contribute to the world.. it could be rationalized by saying you become more peaceful or compassionate, which then spreads to others, or more touchy-feely in that you generate more positive energy in our world or whatever.. or you could just trust that it is so or not so and just sit. The Bodhisattva's vow is a great reason to sit.. really.. but I think you will find a lot more Westerners sit because of the problems they have or an inner draw to meditation or to just plain relax than to become a Bodhisattva .. and in my opinion, after sitting for a while, that vow and desire comes up within you on your own.. its an outcrop of the compassion and kindness that you have as a person. Even if it takes a while for you to realize it.. I wouldn't sweat why you are sitting or why you are meditating.. just sit and the reason will come to you. Its one of those strange things about a practice. But this is just my humble opinion because I too don't have any conclusive insight I can elaborate in detail on..

_/_ Nate

[Taigu]

Re: Preaching and related thoughts

Hi,

You have got the map and then the journey.
We look at maps before starting the hike.
As we go along, we have a look at maps and stuff, but what really matters is to keep going.

gassho

Taigu

NB: unlike any other journey, this one has every moment as a goal, and it never ends.

[Jundo]

Re: Preaching and related thoughts

Recently I was in a chatroom ... I stopped talking to him when I realized that he was talking more for the sake of talking and I personally got the feeling that anything I would say further would be trying to out do him so I completely stopped ...

... buddhism can only be "understood" experientaly?

... I still don't have any conclusive insight that I can elaborate in detail on how the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th noble truths would be correct without a shadow of a doubt so I don't even see zazen as a sitting or life practice to be genuine vehicle for acceptance atleast of whatever is, clearly such acceptence would be valuable, I have yet to personally experience it so I rarely mention much stuff about buddhism in regards of suggesting someone else might try it to help themselves....Is my motivation for being here even genuine? If not, what would be a genuine motivation for wanting to take up a buddhist practice?

Any cup emptying regarding anything in this post would be appreciated.

Hi Greg,

Well, reading this, it sounds like your own mind is a "chatroom" filled with all kinds of folks debating within you!

An old Buddhist saying is "Rome wasn't built in a day!" 8) Give it time, see what happens. One cannot know the true beauty and freedom of ocean sailing in the first days of sailing school, when one yet confuses port and aft and still is tangling the ropes! Yes, empty your cup ... give some questions a rest for now ... give it a little time.

And while I agree that this practice, like sailing, is primarily experiential, there is also a bit of study too ... learning how to read the charts or a compass. We don't fall into the books, neither do we ignore them completely. It is a fine line as to when understanding some Buddhist Doctrines like the "Four Noble Truths" (necessary) turn into wheel spinning and excess such as "the body's 32 parts" (not necessary at all, or just silly), but familiarity with some Buddhist tenets is needed even in Zen. The cushion is the proving ground.

I wish you Good Sailing! To echo Taigu about sailing in our way ...

... unlike any other journey, this one has every moment as a goal, and it never ends.


Gassho, J

[Sleeps]

Re: Preaching and related thoughts

:3

Alright guys, the general tone I got from your posts is "don't worry about it and just continue your exploration/sitting". I'm ok with that. I respect the fact that it does turn into a lifelong practice. Sometimes you need to hear something that you "kind of" know from others involved in the same thing, especially here, because yeah, it's defiantly a "chatroom" sometimes.

Cheers,
Greg

[Jundo]

Re: Preaching and related thoughts

Recently I was in a chatroom and a fellow that apparently grew up buddhist brought up Buddhism. He'd run off Buddha's sayings such as "people are where they are because of karma in this and past lives", "the body can be divided into 32 parts" and a few other things.

It is a fine line as to when understanding some Buddhist Doctrines like the "Four Noble Truths" (necessary) turn into wheel spinning and excess such as "the body's 32 parts" (not necessary at all, or just silly), but familiarity with some Buddhist tenets is needed even in Zen. The cushion is the proving ground.

Actually, something I wrote is misleading, and I should say that the teaching of the "32 parts of the body" is actually quite reasonable and has a purpose behind it. The parts are listed here (Girimananda Sutta):

And what, Ananda, is contemplation of foulness?

Herein, Ananda, a monk contemplates this body upwards from the soles of the feet, downwards from the top of the hair, enclosed in skin, as being full of many impurities. In this body there are head-hairs, body-hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, intestines, intestinal tract, stomach, faeces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, grease, saliva, nasal mucous, synovium (oil lubricating the joints), and urine. Thus he dwells contemplating foulness in this body. This, Ananda, is called contemplation of foulness.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/bud ... _sut15.htm

They are most often listed as part of a traditional Buddhist practice in the Theravadan traditions and elsewhere of "Contemplation of Repulsiveness/Foulness" (Pa?ikk?lamanasik?ra"). Similar practice are found in parts of the Mahayana too, and in Tibetan Buddhism. I hesitate to post to a Wiki listing, but it actually looks pretty good ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patikulamanasikara

The Buddha was like a pharmacist prescribing different medicine for the suffering of various people. In this case, such meditation is a way of teaching to those who are prisoners of lust or over-attraction to the beauties of the physical body and such. Next time you lust after that super-model, concentrate on her spleen and nasal mucus ... and you'll get a taste! :?

Other Buddhists, and most Zen Buddhists, may have become more accepting of the body and natural functions including sexual attractions ... although we still counsel against falling into excess, misusing sexuality, become a prisoner of lusts, being overly concerned with physical beauties, health, youth or the like. We may not be quite so denying of the body, or totally repulsed by it ... but we also should see below and beyond what is skin deep.

In our little corner of Buddhism, sex and sexual attractions are perfectly fine and natural ... so long long as one is not their prisoner, excess is avoided and nobody gets hurt. But I know that I have used this practice a couple of times (not during Zazen, which is Shikantaza), but a few times in life when an attraction toward someone made me think of straying in my marriage. I know that a little concentration on nasal mucus :cry: , plus Shikantaza, plus thoughts of the damage it would do to my children, plus exercise and cold showers (plus some recollection of my wife's two black-belts in Ai-ki-do and Karate :shock: ) kept me on the straight and narrow! At such times, it is good to use every weapon in the arsenal! ops:

As to the fellow saying that "people are where they are because of karma in this and past lives" ... well, that also is a BIG question. I, like many teachers these days, do not tend to be a literalist on overly mechanical views of Karma and Rebirth ... but could be. Here are a couple of threads on Karma and Rebirth that may be helpful ...

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1281
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1429

(those are part of our "Big Questions" series) ...

viewforum.php?f=24

I know that if I cheated on my wife, there likely would be hell to pay ... if not in the next life, than certainly in this one! :evil:

Gassho, J

[Emmet]

Re: Preaching and related thoughts

is there even a point to ever engaging in a activity like running off buddhist sayings if buddhism can only be "understood" experientaly?

When my wife left me, one evening I was sitting with one of my dharma sisters of my sangha, waiting for others to arrive for evening zazen. She gave to me a story I'd heard long ago, but had somehow forgotten;

There was once a poor farmer, and his mare ran off. The other farmers commiserated with him over his misfortune. "We're so sorry! How will you ever plow you fields? This is terrible!"
The farmer replied "Perhaps it is so. Perhaps not; who can say?"

A few days later, his mare returned, with a fine stallion in tow. His neighbors came to celebrate his good luck. "We're so happy for you! You're a rich man now! This is wonderful!"
The farmer replied "Perhaps it is so. Perhaps not; who can say?"

A few days later, his son was trying to break the stallion, when it threw him. His leg was broken, quite severely. The other farmers commiserated with him over his misfortune. "We're so sorry! How will you harvest all by yourself? This is terrible!"
The farmer replied "Perhaps it is so. Perhaps not; who can say?"

A few days later, the army came, and conscripted every young man in the village to war...except the farmer's son.

It may sound trite and maudlin in the retelling, but for where I was that moment that evening, I can't begin to tell you how much that helped me.
Zen is certainly experiential, but there is so much wisdom in the sutras, maxims, and koans, accumulated and distilled over centuries, which can be enormously helpful when skillfully and compassionately applied. I think that it would be a mistake to dismiss it out of hand.

Thank you Dorothy _/|_

[Shokai]

Re: Preaching and related thoughts

Thanks for sharing that, Emmet
_/_