No-Mind Rambling

[Risho]

Re: No-Mind Rambling

Suffering is what makes us human too. I mean it's part of the human condition. So from one perspective, "there is no death, old age" blah blah. But that is bs if we just stay there; we're ignoring our lives aren't we? When my dog died, I was crushed. If someone I love dies I will suffer. If I didn't I'd be some robot.

[Shokai]

Re: No-Mind Rambling

But, suffering without worrying about old age, sickness and death is a lot easier to do

[Rev R]

Re: No-Mind Rambling

If I may...


Pain is part of the experience of life as much as joy is. Suffering on the other hand is optional. The loss of a beloved family member (regardless of species) causes us great pain but to suffer is to crave a time of painlessness. The same holds true for the happier moments in our lives. "Suffering" is not that which makes us happy it's thirsting for the happiness to last.

To phrase it closer to what Jundo said earlier, Wanting the world to be X and resisting when we find out it is Y.

[anista]

Re: No-Mind Rambling

Suffering is what makes us human too. I mean it's part of the human condition. So from one perspective, "there is no death, old age" blah blah. But that is bs if we just stay there; we're ignoring our lives aren't we? When my dog died, I was crushed. If someone I love dies I will suffer. If I didn't I'd be some robot.

Suffering is not just part of the human condition, it's part of the condition of all sentient beings. Buddha taught us a way to extinguish suffering. That doesn't mean becoming a robot, it means a profound understanding of the way things are (= the law of karma-vipaka, action and consequence). We suffer because we don't fully understand or acknowledge karma-vipaka. We hold on to things even when there is nothing to hold on to. We fail to see the consequences, and we blind-fold ourselves to reality. Be wary not to embrace suffering, thinking it's a part of you you will never get away from, defining yourself through the suffering. If that were the case, no buddhist practice would be necessary.

[Kyonin]

Re: No-Mind Rambling

"Save" in a Christian context means something different than "save" in a Buddhist context. To "save" means to convert sinners into Christians, giving them access to forgiveness, heaven, and all that good stuff: it's about conversin. When I chant the vow to "save all sentient beings," I understand "save" to mean a host of other things -- serve, support, treat with compassion, assist, and more -- none of which involve conversion to Buddhism.

Indeed. To me, saving all sentient beings means to be wise and proactive enough to be compassionate and just help people to live a good life away from suffering and missery.

Proselytizing, on the other hand, means to make a "marketing campaign" in order to gain adepts to your cause.

[Jundo]

Re: No-Mind Rambling

Suffering is not just part of the human condition, it's part of the condition of all sentient beings. Buddha taught us a way to extinguish suffering. That doesn't mean becoming a robot, it means a profound understanding of the way things are (= the law of karma-vipaka, action and consequence). We suffer because we don't fully understand or acknowledge karma-vipaka. We hold on to things even when there is nothing to hold on to. We fail to see the consequences, and we blind-fold ourselves to reality. Be wary not to embrace suffering, thinking it's a part of you you will never get away from, defining yourself through the suffering. If that were the case, no buddhist practice would be necessary.

Hi Anista,

This strikes me as one interpretation, with perhaps a very "Theravadan" feel. Nothing wrong with that, but a little different from the perspective of the Perfection of Wisdom Literature and much of the Zen schools.

We do not "extinguish" suffering, so much as pass through and encounter liberation from suffering (Dukkha) via encountering and pouring our self into Emptiness. This is a kind of "extinguishing", but in a more subtle way in which we very much remain in this life and world. The Lotus does not break free of the mud, but grows right through it ... the mud of Samsara bringing the Lotus of Enlightenment to life, as the Lotus brings new meaning to the mud and muck. This is our "profound understanding of the way things are".

Karma becomes a side issue, because one instantaneously and immediately breaks free of Karma in this moment. Free of greed, anger and ignorance ... even amid of world of beauty and sometime ugliness, future lives become a non-issue. We embrace suffering, and are totally free of suffering, at once, here and now.

Something like that.

Gassho, J

[anista]

Re: No-Mind Rambling

Suffering is not just part of the human condition, it's part of the condition of all sentient beings. Buddha taught us a way to extinguish suffering. That doesn't mean becoming a robot, it means a profound understanding of the way things are (= the law of karma-vipaka, action and consequence). We suffer because we don't fully understand or acknowledge karma-vipaka. We hold on to things even when there is nothing to hold on to. We fail to see the consequences, and we blind-fold ourselves to reality. Be wary not to embrace suffering, thinking it's a part of you you will never get away from, defining yourself through the suffering. If that were the case, no buddhist practice would be necessary.

Hi Anista,

This strikes me as one interpretation, with perhaps a very "Theravadan" feel. Nothing wrong with that, but a little different from the perspective of the Perfection of Wisdom Literature and much of the Zen schools.

We do not "extinguish" suffering, so much as pass through and encounter liberation from suffering (Dukkha) via encountering and pouring our self into Emptiness. This is a kind of "extinguishing", but in a more subtle way in which we very much remain in this life and world. The Lotus does not break free of the mud, but grows right through it ... the mud of Samsara bringing the Lotus of Enlightenment to life, as the Lotus brings new meaning to the mud and muck. This is our "profound understanding of the way things are".

Karma becomes a side issue, because one instantaneously and immediately breaks free of Karma in this moment. Free of greed, anger and ignorance ... even amid of world of beauty and sometime ugliness, future lives become a non-issue. We embrace suffering, and are totally free of suffering, at once, here and now.

Something like that.

Gassho, J

Rev. Jundo,

Thank you for your response. I appreciate that.

I do feel, though, that essentially we are saying the same thing. My definition of extinguishing the suffering was " a profound understanding of the way things are (= the law of karma-vipaka, action and consequence)." Yours was "We do not "extinguish" suffering, so much as pass through and encounter liberation from suffering (Dukkha) via encountering and pouring our self into Emptiness. This is a kind of "extinguishing", but in a more subtle way in which we very much remain in this life and world This is our "profound understanding of the way things are"." I do not see how these two definitions are contradictory?

The 'extinguishing' part is not just prevalent in Theravada, it's prevalent in Mahayana as well (including Zen). Nirvana means "to blow out, extinguish", and the word has had that meaning from the beginning. Even if in Mahayana Nirvana has come to mean waking up to our true nature, that itself entails the freedom from suffering. That's why, I believe, Mahaparinirvana sutra speaks thusly:

"Today I shall go into Nirvana,
Crossing over to that other shore
And leaving behind all of the suffering."

Or, the Lanka:

"According to my teaching, Mahamati, the getting rid of the discriminating Manovijnana—this is said to be Nirvana."

Getting rid of our discriminating mental consciousness is to blow out or extinguish the dualism which is inherent in our minds. This in turn leading to no future births. Or, if we take this one life as example, to be like a lotus in the mud, like you said.

Or, from my signature, "The Mind without perceptions is Nirvana", also from a Mahayana sutra. Without perceptions means without the discriminating mind. The discriminating mind is what leads us to suffering.

I strongly believe we are on the same page, although the phrasing may be different, and in my case, less elegant.

Thank you for listening!

[Keishin]

Re: No-Mind Rambling

Hellos to all posting here!

I don't know so much that things get ('blown out') extinguished as much as things get ('do not add more wood to this fire') extinguished...

[Jundo]

Re: No-Mind Rambling

I don't know so much that things get ('blown out') extinguished as much as things get ('do not add more wood to this fire') extinguished...

There is the danger of just playing with words here [in this discussion on this thread], one of the great perils of this Zenny way ...

... but I like to say that there is found (though here all along) that which cannot be burned all around and through us, even as life's fires burn all around and through us. I am reminded of some parables of the Lotus Sutra ...

The first is the Parable of the Burning House ... in which a father tries to lure his children out of a burning house ...

One day, while the man was out, fires broke out simultaneously on all sides of the house, and it began to burn. Inside the house, the children were so preoccupied with their games that they never noticed the fires and did not try to get out. The rich man came home, saw what was happening, and thought, "The children will die if they remain inside. I have to get them out quickly by any means, even by force if necessary." He shouted to them, "Come out right away!" ...

Shakyamuni continued, "It is just as you say. Like the rich man, I am the father of the world. I eliminate fear, grief, ignorance, and darkness. ... I see that all living beings are burned by the fires of birth, old age, disease, and death. They undergo all sorts of sufferings because of their cravings to enhance their lives. ...

... but then there is the Parable of the Poor Son, in which a father tries to lure his wandering, lost son back into the house ...

Once upon a time, there lived a poor man who wandered about the country looking for work. He had long ago forgotten the happy home of his childhood which he had left many years before. ... His father, meanwhile, had grown very rich and now lived in a magnificent villa, from which he directed his many employees and business affairs. However, he never forgot his son who had left home so many years before, and someday he hoped to find him again. ... Then in front of everyone, he revealed his son's true identity and announced that he was the true heir to all his estates and businesses. The son was astonished to hear this. "I never dreamed that I was the rightful heir to all this," he said.

... and the Parable of the Hidden Gem, in which man holds a jewel all along ...

There once lived a poor man who used to drink too much. On one occasion, he visited a wealthy friend, who offered him cup after cup of wine. He enjoyed himself and drank so much that finally he fell sound asleep. His friend had to leave on business. He knew that his poor companion generally lost his wits when drinking, but he felt sorry for him and wanted to help him in some way. So before leaving, he fastened a priceless gem to the garment of the poor man as a gift. Then he departed, certain that his poor friend would be delighted when he awoke and discovered his new wealth.

But things did not work out as the rich friend had planned. The drunken man finally awoke, but he did not notice the gem which was sewn into his garment. He got bleary-eyed and went out, believing he possessed no more than a headache. He had no home nor steady work to go to, so he wandered about from one place to another for many years, living a miserable existence.

One day he ran into his old friend. The friend was shocked by his wretched appearance. "What's wrong with you?" he asked. "I left a priceless gem sewn in your garment that last evening we were together. I expected you to sell it, invest the money in some business, and get on your feet at last. Why didn't you do so?"

The poor man was bewildered. "Gem?" he asked. "What gem?" He felt along the lining of his garment, and was astonished to find a precious stone attached to it. He had been a wealthy man all this time without realizing it.

The moral of these stories for me?

Neither be trapped in the burning house, nor wander aimlessly searching for one's true home. Know the jewel that is with us all along right in the heart of home and businesses.

In the early "Fire Sermon" (Adittapariyaya Sutta), the Buddha proclaimed ...

All is aflame. What All is aflame? The eye is aflame. Forms are aflame. Consciousness at the eye is aflame. Contact at the eye is aflame. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I tell you, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. ... "Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with the eye, disenchanted with forms, disenchanted with consciousness at the eye, disenchanted with contact at the eye [same for ear, nose, tongue, body, mind] ... Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

And it is so, we are free of this world. Yet, in the Aggi Vacchagotta Sutta (To Vacchagotta on Fire), the Buddha reminds us that "burning" is not so simple ... and where one "goes" from this world upon enlightenment is not a matter of positions or limited by directions ...

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Savatthi, at Jeta's Grove ,,,

[Master Gotama said] "A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is perception ... such are mental fabrications... such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' ... I say, a Tathagata — with the ending, fading out, cessation, renunciation, & relinquishment of all construings ... all I-making & mine-making ... — is, through lack of clinging, released."

[Vaccha asked] "But, Master Gotama, the monk whose mind is thus released: Where does he reappear?"

"'Reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply."

"In that case, Master Gotama, he does not reappear."

"'Does not reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply."

"...Both does and does not reappear."

"...Doesn’t apply."

"...Neither does nor does not reappear."

"...Doesn’t apply."

"How is it, Master Gotama, when Master Gotama is asked if the monk reappears... does not reappear... both does and does not reappear... neither does nor does not reappear, he says, '...doesn't apply' in each case. At this point, Master Gotama, I am befuddled ...

"Of course you're befuddled, Vaccha. Of course you're confused. Deep, Vaccha, is this phenomenon, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. ... How do you construe this, Vaccha: If a fire were burning in front of you, would you know that, 'This fire is burning in front of me'?"

"...yes..."

...

"And suppose someone were to ask you, 'this fire that has gone out in front of you, in which direction from here has it gone? East? West? North? Or south?' Thus asked, how would you reply?"

"That doesn't apply, Master Gotama. Any fire burning dependent on a sustenance of grass and timber, being unnourished -- from having consumed that sustenance and not being offered any other -- is classified simply as 'out' (unbound)."

"Even so, Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the Tathágata would describe him: That the Tathágata has abandoned, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathágata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does and does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

The Buddha moved along the dusty roads of India to Savatthi, at Jeta's Grove ... Bodhidharma crossed mountains to China ... Dogen sailed to Japan etc. etc. ... never wandering lost, and always At Home ... travelling and living East West North or South, teaching how to live unbounded by East West North or South.

Gassho, J

[Keishin]

Re: No-Mind Rambling

Hellos to Jundo and to all others posting here!

I’ve been visting and posting to various threads on the forum for 3 years or so now.
I’ve been coming here less frequently and I am moved to post less.
I am sorry you felt the need to rebuke me and call my post ‘just playing with words, one of the great perils of this zenny world’
At times I am playful, but I am not ‘playin’’ My contributions are based on my own personal experience of this practice (three decades).

My post was not intended in any way to serve as the ‘definitive’ answer (I leave that to the teachers here). My meager little post, from my own experience had to do specifically with my own arising thoughts (my personal source of suffering), and that in my own experience, it isn’t so much a question of my needing to exert effort in ‘blowing out’ as much rather as my expending less energy: just not feed thoughts by adding energy to them.

While I was being playful in my parsimonious use of words (I like to use the fewer the better), the point I was making by my contribution was based on my own experience.

If you feel my contribution was out of line or frivolous, perhaps this explanation helps?



(and now, after posting, the laundry! Sunday is my Monday and I've no clean clothes!)

[Jundo]

Re: No-Mind Rambling

I am sorry you felt the need to rebuke me and call my post ‘just playing with words, one of the great perils of this zenny world’

Hi Keishin,

No rebuke was intended at all! I meant it about me too. I liked what you wrote, for what it is worth. I changed my comment to say ...

There is the danger of just playing with words here [in this discussion on this thread], one of the great perils of this Zenny way ...

We are --each-- at risk of these perils! Heck, some of my long posts cannot help but fall into tangles of words!

Gassho, Jundo

[michaeljc]

Re: No-Mind Rambling

My turn for a dumb question: Regarding impermanence...We are taught that nothing is permanent, and change is a fact of live, inherent in all of life and living. BUT... that means that 'change' is a 'constant' and therefore 'unchanging state of being'...so in that case there is something we call change that doesn't change, so there really is something that is permanent adn unchanging after all. Now my head is dizzy (and no, that's not a usual state of being for me either!) :P Spinning circles... I'm confused... ops:

Thanks for this thread!! gassho, ann

Hi . chessie I know what I think to be the answer to this nice natural Koan . But, my answer would be no use to you. I am not a teacher but I would suggest you wait for the answer to arrive. I hope you sit, as otherwise you may be waiting for a long time.
Cheers
M

[Jundo]

Re: No-Mind Rambling

I am not a teacher but I would suggest you wait for the answer to arrive. I hope you sit, as otherwise you may be waiting for a long time.
Cheers
M

I think this more on the money than what the 'teachers' wrote! Simple, Direct, Lovely! Thank you Michael!

Gassho, J