Forgetting Zazen?

[Jundo]

Re: Forgetting Zazen?

just a question:

To allow the intense moment to just be and the dull moments to just be, doesn't that require us to be fully aware of them. To see the moments as thus, and to let them be?

I can think of two kinds of just letting be. One in awareness, and one in LaLa land. Where we let things be just because we weren't paying attention to them....

Hi Seiryu,

It is a tricky question. Our way is not to daydream on the cushion, or to be in Lala land ... although sometimes we may be. Neither is our way to intensively seek to not be daydreaming or in lala land, as if that were some failure of Zazen (Zazen has no failure, even when going wrong! :shock: ). Sometimes we are fully aware, sometimes not, yet all Zazen. When not fully aware, or when daydreaming ... gently come back again and again to not be distracted by daydreaming. Repeat. Repeat. Zazen is complete in all cases.

And when off the cushion and daydreaming ... just enjoy your daydream! That is part of life too! Same when off the cushion and aware. Just be aware.

The best description of this is perhaps by Uchiyama Roshi, here (about ZZ' BB' CC' ... and there is a diagram if you follow the book link too)

viewtopic.php?p=20645#p20645

Gassho, J

[ChrisA]

Re: Forgetting Zazen?

Those of you who are using the word "waste," what do you mean?

[Shokai]

Re: Forgetting Zazen?

Thank you Jundo-oso, Seiryu, Taylor, Chris and all else of the contributors to this here thread;

To set up what you like against what you dislike
is the disease of the mind.

Evil, evil, thinking mind :mrgreen:
what do you mean? when you say, "what do you mean?"

Words, the Way is beyond language, for in it there is

no such thing as time :shock:

I'm just skipping along the "ZZ" line here folks; la,la,la...... lalala :lol:
Mindfulness matters; don't "waste" it !!

[Taylor]

Re: Forgetting Zazen?

Those of you who are using the word "waste," what do you mean?

Let's see if I can guide this in a way that won't bastardize it, shall we (no easy task)? :P

Certain things are considered productive uses of our time. They build things, plan things, produce things. Society gives us the thumbs up for being a "good working citizen" and we keep at it. Nothing wrong with that! It's when we think that we HAVE to get something, HAVE to get somewhere, HAVE to get something, some merit badge that says, "Go you you productive citizen!". We crave that addictive pat on the back that says "YES YES YES! YOU'VE DONE IT!"

Zazen gives us none of that. We gain nothing, we produce nothing, we move nowhere. Do we settle into life a bit easier? Maybe. Do we meet every day with a bit more acceptance? Maybe. But we certainly haven't gained anything, or done anything. We're just living life.

So yes, zazen is a waste of time. But can you think of anything else that is more vital than just living life as it is? It's part of that grand Genjokoan we face every single day.

[Jundo]

Re: Forgetting Zazen?

Those of you who are using the word "waste," what do you mean?

Let's see if I can guide this in a way that won't bastardize it, shall we (no easy task)? :P

Certain things are considered productive uses of our time. They build things, plan things, produce things. Society gives us the thumbs up for being a "good working citizen" and we keep at it. Nothing wrong with that! It's when we think that we HAVE to get something, HAVE to get somewhere, HAVE to get something, some merit badge that says, "Go you you productive citizen!". We crave that addictive pat on the back that says "YES YES YES! YOU'VE DONE IT!"

Zazen gives us none of that. We gain nothing, we produce nothing, we move nowhere. Do we settle into life a bit easier? ...

One point that always needs to be always emphasized though (because otherwise some may interpret such words to mean that Zazen requires a life without doing ... just staying in bed all day, just constant 'stopping to smell the roses' with no work done to plant and weed those roses!) is that ...

... one can move in stillness, go forward diligently needing to get somewhere with -simultaneously- no place in need of getting, work to achieve goals while simultaneously dropping all goals.

So long as we have these little bodies and minds, we have places to go, things to do, people to see. If one goes to visit a typical Zen monastery, ya might be very surprised about how busy those folks are ... how much they need to do ... to maintain the place. There is a time to sit Zazen, a time to plant roses and cook the meals. If a person had no need or desire to achieve something, you would never get out of bed, never feed yourself ... humankind would have never even discovered fire to heat their caves!

How to reconcile the two?

Well, our Zen Way ... although about sitting still ... has never been about spending one's life still. There is stillness in motion, peace amid the moving ahead. There is no place to get to ... even as we get up in the morning, get out of bed and head out that door to pay the bills (or get to our college classes like you, Taylor).

I wrote the following once, and it is a subject very close to my heart for the reasons explained:

As a card carrying member of "Type A Personalities Anonymous" (I just got my 15 year chip), I will say this about "achievement". The Buddha, Dogen, all the teachers were people who accomplished things ... be it building a monastery or teaching thousands of students or writing some great book, or all of the above! They had goals and plans. They were not folks to sit on their lotus leaf and contemplate their navel (at least, not all during the day).

So, Zen is not opposed to accomplishment.

However, we might offer a few neat perspectives on the subject:

First, it is possible to have "goals" on one channel, while simultaneously dropping all "goals" on another channel, not two. This is "thinking not thinking", or more precisely, "goaling not goaling". Work your project, create your plans, make your choices ... but know that there is nothing in need of improving, nothing to choose, not a thing to plan. This is the lesson of Zazen amid life!

Second, there really is no "place to get to". Life is lived for its own sake. So, whether you build a skyscraper, or write the next great novel, or compose the greatest piece of music of all time ... or whether you just sit on your butt staring at a butterfly, or at a sunset, or at the tv ... it makes no difference. It is all just your life, as you choose to live it. So, write that novel or just read one ... there is "no place to get to". "Be one" with whatever path you choose, what you are doing -- or not doing -- in your life at a particular moment. However, also get done what needs to get done ... and we need folks to build and compose, so do that too if you feel the calling! (If it weren't for folks getting up and trying to accomplish things ... we would not have so much of this wondrous modern world we live in. We would not even have Buddhism if the Buddha had not decided to rise from the Lotus Position and teach). Be diligent. Build things, work hard, and make this world a little better!

There is a time to stop and smell the roses ... there is a time to get one's shovel, plant and water and weed the roses.

Third, do as you can to live by "Right Livelihood", the 5th link of the Eightfold Noble Path. Live so as not to harm others, not to harm yourself, and in a manner helpful and healthful to both (they are not two). Provide for yourself and your family, keep them fed and educated and clothed and housed, but do not be seeking material success or be be attached to material things. Money, fame and power are not the point of life. (We will discuss this in much greater detail when we prepare for the Jukai and study the Precepts). If they, however, come to you ... fine. But then, do not be entrapped by them, and use them skillfully and for good.

Know the difference between what you think you need to live, what is helpful and healthful ... and the "stuff" you crave which you only think you need to be "happy". Even with the former, know moderation ... for even good things, in excess, lead to attachment and harm.

Gassho, Jundo

[Seiryu]

Re: Forgetting Zazen?

I like what Taylor wrote.

Zazen isn't a means to an end. Zazen is an end on to itself. Just like life. And yet many people live life as a means to some end, and in this they miss all the beauty. Zazen shows us clearly the wholeness and complete ness of everything.

A random thought....

[Jundo]

Re: Forgetting Zazen?

I like what Taylor wrote.

Zazen isn't a means to an end. Zazen is an end on to itself. Just like life. And yet many people live life as a means to some end, and in this they miss all the beauty. Zazen shows us clearly the wholeness and complete ness of everything.

A random thought....

Yes, lovely. lovely. Thank you, Taylor and Seiryu. Gassho, J

[ChrisA]

Re: Forgetting Zazen?

Gassho for this series of posts. Reading them was no waste of time!

[senryu]

Re: Forgetting Zazen?

Dear Senseis and friends,
When I am in a good zazen (it doesn´t happen frequently, unhappily :? ) I feel like a fortress in my head that protect me of my own wild thoughts, and permit focus me in the now and in the dharma (“hear the voice of the masters in his own head”, said an old text)...What time I can stay in this state when I am in zazen? A very short time, unhappily :cry: But sometimes it keeps more time, and sometimes (it is not very often but happens), this state can continues when the PC/Ipod/zendo´s bell rings. Then I can stand up of my zafu, and the fortress keeps on...and I can move me around the world in zanshin (martial arts alert) and be focused, usually for a few seconds or maybe minutes...Then I return to my usual state of the wild thoughts empire, and I feel I am forgetting zazen...
And I forget, and I forget, again, and again.
Teacher Joko Beck said that this is common fact, because I am a beginner, but the same Joko said that sometimes, with an enough time of practice (around 20 years, to begin :shock: ) this state of the fortress (or something like that) could going on longer and longer...I don´t know if this is truth but I trust, and I hope to continue with zazen, without expectative, for the time was necessary to not forgetting zazen anymore.
Gasho
Senryu

[Taylor]

Re: Forgetting Zazen?

Dear Senseis and friends,
When I am in a good zazen (it doesn´t happen frequently, unhappily :? ) I feel like a fortress in my head that protect me of my own wild thoughts, and permit focus me in the now and in the dharma (“hear the voice of the masters in his own head”, said an old text)...What time I can stay in this state when I am in zazen? A very short time, unhappily :cry: But sometimes it keeps more time, and sometimes (it is not very often but happens), this state can continues when the PC/Ipod/zendo´s bell rings. Then I can stand up of my zafu, and the fortress keeps on...and I can move me around the world in zanshin (martial arts alert) and be focused, usually for a few seconds or maybe minutes...Then I return to my usual state of the wild thoughts empire, and I feel I am forgetting zazen...
And I forget, and I forget, again, and again.
Teacher Joko Beck said that this is common fact, because I am a beginner, but the same Joko said that sometimes, with an enough time of practice (around 20 years, to begin :shock: ) this state of the fortress (or something like that) could going on longer and longer...I don´t know if this is truth but I trust, and I hope to continue with zazen, without expectative, for the time was necessary to not forgetting zazen anymore.
Gasho
Senryu

Gassho Senryu, glad to have you here.

I wouldn't worry about "good" zazen or "bad" zazen. These are just our judgements of what zazen should be, and it shouldn't be anything! Yes, there are moments of intense focus. Yes, there are times of wild thoughts. Both are just you being completely you. Don't reach so far for "good zazen" or you might miss the moment right now!

[ChrisA]

Re: Forgetting Zazen?

What Taylor said! I'd also suggest that your un/happiness may similarly be getting in the way of, you know, just this.

[Jundo]

Re: Forgetting Zazen?

I wouldn't worry about "good" zazen or "bad" zazen. These are just our judgements of what zazen should be, and it shouldn't be anything! Yes, there are moments of intense focus. Yes, there are times of wild thoughts. Both are just you being completely you. Don't reach so far for "good zazen" or you might miss the moment right now!

Yes. We Shikantaza folks have a strange and wonderful conception of "good Zazen" as Zazen beyond all human judgments of "good vs. bad Zazen".

And, even though there is no place to go and nothing to attain ... and though there is nothing in this life-world-self to get "better" ... as we walk the path of Practice, darn right that we do get better as the months and years pass in getting to this "no place in need of getting" and attaining this "nothing in need of attaining"! TRICKY! This profound realization of "nothing to get better" is really getting better, and as the days and years it shows more and more in one's practice and we get somewhere (by getting to no where to get, no time to not arrive). Truly mastering this "nothing to get better" ... and living life in a better way, more wise and gentle ... is getting better. Truly realizing this ... making it real in one's life ... is the "fortress" of which Joko Roshi speaks.

Truly piercing this fact is "Good Zazen"! Truly living such way is Good Life!

It is not about more and more maintaining "martial arts alertness", as Senryu described, though we be so sometimes. Senryu, everyone, please have a read of this even if you know it well ...

"Right" Zazen and "Wrong" Zazen

I would like to repost something that I think is important to really really really pierce ... about "right" Zazen and "wrong" Zazen. Someone wrote to ask if there was a general "litmus test" for when we are Practicing "right". It is also a good time to briefly review just what is "just sitting" Shikantaza, good for new folks and old folks too:

Don't think we don't make progress in our Zen Practice even as we toss out all thought of anywhere to get. Don't think that we reach no true attainments, and that our life does not radically change, even as we drop all idea of "attainment" or a "need to change". Remember too that this "getting to nowhere to get" all takes time and diligent Practice, even as we give up all worry about "time".

The following is the closest I come to a "litmus test" for someone's Practice, a couple of things I wrote awhile back ...

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2783

Tricky, yet simple as simple can be!

Gassho, Jundo

[Ekai]

Re: Forgetting Zazen?

This thread is very helpful. I have a type "A" personality also with a tendency to be overly driven. It definitely has improved over the years but still needs more letting go.

Thanks,
Jodi

[senryu]

Re: Forgetting Zazen?

Thanks a lot sensei Jundo,
I really appreciate your words. Actually, I have some doubts about this was the path or I am only was deluding me. Now I know that I need to go beyond this beginner point.
It´s really a good thing to have a teacher to reflect with us about our zen experiences...
I promise (especially to me) to persist.
Gassho
Senryu