Alan Watts on Enlightenment

[RichardH]

Re: Alan Watts on Enlightenment

Hellos to all posting here!

The trend these days is to speak belittlingly of Alan Watts. ......

Please.


Ed. Hi Keishin. I should say more than just a snarky sounding "Please" , and explain further. A perceived trend says something about those who are perceived to be part of that trend, and that involves a lot of assumptions, in this case about how those who have come to a view, have come to it. View-trends are like memes, fleeting, superficial, reflexive things. But views may be come by, regardless of trends, based on all kinds of experiences of who-knows-how-much depth and history.

[Jinyo]

Re: Alan Watts on Enlightenment

Thinking through the crux of this discussion.

Is it skilful to separate the 'personhood' of an author/teacher - from the work/teachings? Or - If we perceive the person to be flawed in their 'lived life' is it skilful to judge? In judging do we lose sight of the fact that we are all flawed and perhaps this person is merely reflecting back the fragility and flawed nature of human life.
Should we only regard 'the words on the page' - the teachings - and ignore the life of the teacher all together.

I don't have an answer to this.

Kershin - I took on board your final comment 'where would I be now without many teachings?' I mentioned in an earlier post my disenchantment of some teachings I
had been involved with/influenced by. But no - your words resonated with me because whatever my relections then/and now - I did grow/learn through those experiences. ..... but another voice says 'well - I was lucky' - because sometimes individuals get hurt.

Kojip - could you write a bit more on 'view trends are like memes'....

Gassho


Willow

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Alan Watts on Enlightenment

In another thread:

I knew lots of painters who were "beat Zen" i.e. slackers, who never applied themselves enough to bring their craft to fruition. it is a shame IMO.

In this thread:

during the context of his times, Alan Watts took what was acknowledged as cool and hip--the Beats--who took a narrow interpretation of zen as wide open zen-is-freedom-and-freedom-means-anything-goes--and was more 'responsible' if you will at 'splaining various concepts.

Views are just views and we are all formed and transformed by our experiences.
Truth is, none of us knew the man. From the little I know about him, he never tried to market himself as an enlightened Zen master, like Dennis Genpo Mertzel did, and should not be judged as one. I choose to believe that he was spreading the Buddha's Dharma the best he could and in so doing made an important contribution in explaining difficult eastern buddhist concepts for westerners. For me, therefore, he was a great Bodhisattva. But it is just a view and not very well grounded. Like everything, it will change.

[RichardH]

Re: Alan Watts on Enlightenment

Kojip - could you write a bit more on 'view trends are like memes'....

Sure. I do not mean “Meme” as used in the Spiral Dynamic model of value-view unfolding (which is interesting but has unfortunately been completely appropriated by the “Integral” movement). I was thinking of an “internet meme”, where a view or feeling or sensibility or image can rapidly evolve as it sweeps across the online world, then departs. Here is an example of an internet meme being tracked. http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/trololo-russian-rickroll

[Jinyo]

Re: Alan Watts on Enlightenment

... thanks Kojip - I have looked that up - and then got sidetracked into Spriral and Integral theory!

Back to shikantaza - need to clear my mind.

Gassho

Willow

[RichardH]

Re: Alan Watts on Enlightenment

Sorry!! Spreading the monkey mind around again

[JustBen]

I owe Watts this: In The Way of Zen, he made clear the difference between conventional and unconventional knowledge. Before reading The Way, I had a bad tendency to dismiss or belittle unconventional knowledge. Getting a grip on the difference opened me up to Eastern philosophy in a new way. And, not incidentally, convinced me that it was worthwhile to get my butt on the cushion.

[Daitetsu]

Thanks for digging up this old thread!

My two cents on "Alan Watts":
As was said above, Alan Watts didn't claim to be a Zen master. When you listen to his talks (there is an excellent collection called "You're It!") or read his book "The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are" you see that he mixed traditions/practices in his personal life. He "combined" Zen, Taoism, Hinduism and other practices. IMHO the reason for this becomes apparent in some of his talks: He considered these practices as a means not as the goal, they were fingers pointing to the moon, not the moon themselves. He warned that one should not to get attached to a certain practice.

Even Abbot Muho from the Soto monastery Antaiji said in a documentary something like "I believe there are other ways to enlightenment than Zazen. I don't claim it is the only way. And I am even not sure whether it is the easiest way for everybody."
Nevertheless, he chose this way for himself.

Yes, Alan Watts was not someone who strictly followed one tradition. He had his faults, but who hasn't?
However, this does not mean we cannot learn something from him. I have found his talks and books quite inspirational.

Gassho,

Timo

[Nengyo]

I've watched a few small excerpts of Alan Watts' work on youtube and thought they were really cool. Then when I read his works I was less impressed. It seems that, as happens with movie trailers, all the "best parts" were made into short videos already. That being said, I really liked a few of his videos where he tries to get people to understand that they are not separate from the universe, it is a simple scientific fact that we are the big bang, we are star dust, we are the planet. We may not feel like it, but we certainly are. Anyone who helps get that across is doing good work to me. One of my favorite discussions is when he talks about how we aren't amazed when an apple tree apples because that's what they do, well the earth is doing the same thing, it peoples. Peopling is what it does.

I don't care for his stance on drugs and alcohol mixing with spiritual insight. I'm not against casual drug and alcohol use if that's what someone digs, but he seems to make an error in thinking that drugs and alcohol can lead to "enlightenment." As a non drug user I can't refute or explain his experiences. However, If I used drugs for insight, I would always be scared that my insight had nothing to do with reality. For an analogy, lets say you are young, shy guy who has a hard time picking up girls at a bar. You drink a few drinks and loosen up. You drink a few more and you meet a girl and go home with her. On the way out the bar you tell your buddies that you are leaving. You are proud and you think to yourself "man, I've got this game figured out!" Then the next morning you wake up in a trailer park with an unattractive, crazy, 40 year old divorced cat lady whose kid is jumping up and down on the bed screaming "new daddy!" Suddenly you realize that all your inner realizations, all your confidence, and your new "game" were all wrong. The booze was a lie. I imagine that any insight gained trough drugs could be the same, only you may never "wake up" to see if it comported with reality or not.

[RichardH]

I read the books mentioned before learning Buddhist practice.. and as already said, they draw from different traditions. What they instructed me to do was to look at, and recognize, already existing oneness, and of already being-the-flow , regardless. This was in line with the Advaita Vedanta I was familiar with at the time. When I began to learn Buddhism (not Zen at the time) it was a surprise to see that these things were not the emphasis at all. The emphasis was on seeing into the nature of Dukkha, while pointedly, importantly, dropping the inherent limitation of ontological concern. Is non-dukkha oneness? or not-twoness? or being the flow? or "It"? ...Can't say. It is non-Dukkha. When I came to Zen practice some Advaita sounding language came back, but it was in the context of Dukkha and Non-dukkha, and that made a world of difference for me, because then practice became more than just saying to myself "I'm already it" without even touching deeply ingrained, greed anger and ignorance. That's my flawed sense of things anyway.. and those readings were a long time ago, so they may be remembered poorly.


Gassho. kojip

[Daitetsu]

Hi Charles,

What a cool (and graphic) comparison!
I totally agree with you on the drug thing. I think several people experimented with LSD during that era.
Taking substances in order to achieve a certain goal seems unnatural to me...

Gassho,

Timo

[Daitetsu]

Hi kojip,

Is non-dukkha oneness? or not-twoness? or being the flow? or "It"? ...Can't say. It is non-Dukkha. When I came to Zen practice some Advaita sounding language came back, but it was in the context of Dukkha and Non-dukkha, and that made a world of difference for me, because then practice became more than just saying to myself "I'm already it" without even touching deeply ingrained, greed anger and ignorance. That's my flawed sense of things anyway.. and those readings were a long time ago, so they may be remembered poorly.

Very interesting thoughts!
Doesn't Oneness contain even Dukkha?
Perhaps when one really realizes ones true self (i.e. not just a mere theoretical grasp), it is a way to "overcome" Dukkha. By accepting it as part of life and finding a way "somewhere in the middle".

Gassho,

Timo

[RichardH]

Hi kojip,



Very interesting thoughts!
Doesn't Oneness contain even Dukkha?
Perhaps when one really realizes ones true self (i.e. not just a mere theoretical grasp), it is a way to "overcome" Dukkha. By accepting it as part of life and finding a way "somewhere in the middle".

Gassho,

Timo

In my experience "when one really realizes ones true self (i.e. not just a mere theoretical grasp)" is just stringing along a concept.., throwing away the thing and keeping the scent, blowing away the scent and keeping the memory..etc. All I mean is... when sitting where is true self? There is reaching, and there is seeing reaching, and there is no longer reaching... ontological qualifiers have no footing. That is just my honest experience of practice . Gassho kojip

[Daitetsu]

Hi kojip,

Thank you!

Gassho,

Timo

[Oaken]

Thank you Seiryu for the video and everyone for this discussion
After high school one of my friends gave me The Way of Zen to read,we spent many a night talking about the concepts in it. It opened my young mind to thinking outside the box that school and our culture tried to put us in. Alan's writing got me started thinking about meditation and it got me on the winding zig zaggy path my life has been.
I reread The Way of Zen this summer and I was surprised how much of the concepts in the book had stuck with me over the years. I am glad to read Suzuki Roshi thought of him as a Bodhisattva
Gassho
Tom