SPLIT: GURUS AND TEACHERS

[Eika]

Re: SPLIT: GURUS AND TEACHERS

Folks who need/require/demand guru practice will not find it here. Inevitably, however, there are students who are so needy that they will treat a teacher/student relationship as if it were a guru/disciple relationship. It happens a lot in other teaching circles as well. Little remedy other than good teachers who can carefully push the student back a bit while simultaneously building them up enough to stand on their own two feet. We've got a great balance here, IMO, with teachers who are helpful but do not let us turn over our personal responsibility in the universe over to them.

The myriad dharma paths and schools that arose in vastly different cultures and contexts have all arrived at the single-most consumeristic society in history. This is simply where we are, so yeah, there's going to be a little mix-and-match going on.

Amen, Chet!

What if the student doesn't know how to examine a belief system if they come from a background where blind faith is expected, so they're already primed to follow whatever the person "in charge" is teaching?

I've certainly known this to be true with a lot of incoming college students. Maybe it is the age . . .

In any case, it is not our way in this Sangha.

Hear, hear! If the Vajrayana folks can make the guru stuff work for them, more power to them, but like a light saber (wink to Fugen) it is a VERY powerful tool that can easily be mishandled with dire consequences to all parties.

Gassho,
Eika

[Dojin]

Re: SPLIT: GURUS AND TEACHERS

I don't care much for mix and match bullshit either. to be honest i don't like spirituality!
i don't think zen is spiritual. people used to say i was spiritual but i always told them that i wasn't and it had nothing to do with zen. so i guess you are all right that zen is view in a certain way and what is expected of it to be.

as for a guru i think it is stupid to follow someone and not thinking. a lot of harm has been done to the world by following unquestioningly, just look at the second world war and the holocaust! it is very tempting to give up control, even though most people will always claim they prefer to be the masters of their own fate. it is much easier to give someone else the role of thinking, choosing and deciding for us. that was our minds need not think of the hard choices or ugliness of the world. we can just live free. to do so of your won free will sounds magical like you are smart and it is beyond the ability of a lesser man. but it is only an illusion, in truth we become slaves not only to the guru but to our own notion of what freedom is. we lose our humanity, and in doing so become the lesser man who can not live in this world because it is too harsh for us.
it must not only be guru. it can be anything. not too long ago i read the book American Gods by Neil Gaiman. it had an idea that anything we sacrifice to can become a god, even television to which we sacrifice time. so worshiping blindly is always a bad idea even if the teaching is right.
but that is just my opinion.

i will end this with my favorite quote of the Buddha which really struck me when i read it first and still embodies to me what he taught.

“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” – Buddha

Gassho, Dojin.

[Seiryu]

Re: SPLIT: GURUS AND TEACHERS

“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” – Buddha

My favorite quote as well. Too me, to be able to listen to one's own self and judgment without it being filter through what everyone else thinks about it or what not, is spirituality.

Gurus, Religions, even what we watch and listen to do become things of worship because when we follow what the masses tell us we give up our thinking. We let the other think for us. It makes some feel safe. Not having to think, or that the other will have all the answers. A lot of people feel safe as sheep. Just following the heard. We shouldn't blindly follow anything. Trust your own judgment. If you feel like something is right because you truly feel it from the heart,not the mind, but from the heart-then follow that. If you feel that something is wrong-drop it.

_/_

Seiryu

[Graceleejenkins]

Re: SPLIT: GURUS AND TEACHERS

“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” – Buddha

This is the quote that first got me interested in learning about Buddhism. I also think that this one belief is what separates Buddha's teachings from being a religion.

[Just following the heard. We shouldn't blindly follow anything. Trust your own judgment. If you feel like something is right because you truly feel it from the heart,not the mind, but from the heart-then follow that. If you feel that something is wrong-drop it.

I would join the two--heart and mind--and would not go anywhere if one or the other was giving a warning until the dichotomy was resolved. Gassho, Grace.

[disastermouse]

Re: SPLIT: GURUS AND TEACHERS

“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” – Buddha

My favorite quote as well. Too me, to be able to listen to one's own self and judgment without it being filter through what everyone else thinks about it or what not, is spirituality.

Gurus, Religions, even what we watch and listen to do become things of worship because when we follow what the masses tell us we give up our thinking. We let the other think for us. It makes some feel safe. Not having to think, or that the other will have all the answers. A lot of people feel safe as sheep. Just following the heard. We shouldn't blindly follow anything. Trust your own judgment. If you feel like something is right because you truly feel it from the heart,not the mind, but from the heart-then follow that. If you feel that something is wrong-drop it.

_/_

Seiryu

You do realize that this fierce individuality is a relatively new development in Buddhism of all kinds, right?

[murasaki]

Re: SPLIT: GURUS AND TEACHERS

I strongly dislike this kind of "spiritual soup" that people mix together, a bit of astrology, a bit of rose quartz, a bit of dakini, a bit of Native American creation story, a bit of blah blah blah...

Ahhh... Murasaki, you know who I'm referring to. LOL
Aw well. Hope things work out for her and her followers as beneficially as possible. It may not be what I think of as a healthy path, but you know what? If they're happy and she's meeting some need for them, so be it. They certainly don't need my blessing. And they definitely don't need my money.

Heh heh...the sad thing is, I'm not even sure who you're referring to, I myself was describing two different people that I know! That kind of proves my point...you can start rattling off artifacts and notions that people bounce around, and there it is, you've described at least a small handful of people that pretend to be adepts at their synthesis.

You know what really burns me up... people who play at making these new-agey soups find out about my interest in buddhism, and automatically assume that I play the same games that they do. Next thing they're nodding and agreeing with me about some of the buddhist ideas I talk about, and THEN they just HAVE TO ADD, "We ought to get together sometime and do some work with [insert esoteric pseudo-ancient goddess-healing practice here]!" It bothers me so much that they don't even take a moment to understand where I situate myself "spiritually" or "religiously" (I don't like these terms anymore either, probably because of the people I"m talking about) before they go prescribing me things they think will do me good. That's just arrogance -- it's like saying, "Oh, you must play with cool spiritual toys just like me...but still, your practice just isn't good enough, your soup isn't edible, until you've got in it what I've got in mine!"

As if their lives were all pan flutes and circles of healing light all the d*mn time.

“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” – Buddha

This is sheer brilliance, thank you for reminding us of it.

Couldn't agree more. I see it as "Lemme just jam in as much exotic stuff that Average Joe/Jane American will be drawn to since they're tired of the same ol' Hamburger Helper (to extend the soup analogy) that they've been eating for years." I'm judging here, but I see the creators of such soups as jaded, cynical merchandisers because there are always accessories and trinkets to buy, expensive seminars, endless books and videos, and so on. We like "stuff", we like "new ideas" and "new experiences", and even better if those experiences are "mystical and profound" because the every-day experience is one that seems to lack any meaning or purpose.

Finding these sorts of so-called teachers (throw a stick and you'll hit one nowadays) is dangerous, not just because they can (I'm not saying they always do, some might genuinely be trying to be helpful, but are misguided themselves) abuse the student/guru relationship, but also because what they teach is such a mish-mash that the student has no WAY to question it.

This is particularly true if the student comes from a background that has no experience whatsoever of these thrown together beliefs as they exist in their own contexts and doesn't know HOW to question it. How can there be critical analysis or questioning if there's nothing "solid" in the system in the first place? What if the student doesn't know how to examine a belief system if they come from a background where blind faith is expected, so they're already primed to follow whatever the person "in charge" is teaching?

Exactly. I was trying to find a way to say this but stopped short -- mixing notions here and there gives the student no frame of reference whatsoever and they are sitting ducks from that point onward.

I've got your back when it comes to seeming hard-lined about this subject. I see a trap as a trap, quick-sand as quick-sand, and I call it as I see it.

High five!

gassho
Julia

[Seiryu]

Re: SPLIT: GURUS AND TEACHERS

I like what has been said so far. It is good to have guides, and some help here and there from a teacher, but it is when those teachers become infallible that then you have a real problem. Jundo and Taigu are teachers, they are of a tremendous help, but they remind us all the time that they are just human like any of us. No better, no worse. When they make mistakes, they admit it and move on.

I'm sure some gurus if they made a mistake, they will say that it was part of the practice. Some spiritual leaders seem to have more ego, and more hang-ups then the students they are trying to help.

_/_

Seiryu

[Hoyu]

Re: GURUS AND TEACHERS

Jundo wrote:
This was never really a part of Zen practice, although sometimes many traditional Indian-Chinese-Japanese views of the "master-disciple" relationship were about the same. These were traditional and feudal societies, so it was not just in Buddhism ... but all through the "top-down/lord & master vs. slave, servant and serf" society. In Japanese "samurai" society, the image was that if a "master" tells his disciple to fall on one's sword ... the disciple falls on one's sword unquestioningly (Ah, sometimes I wish we had some of those "good ol days" more around here at treeleaf! :twisted: ). On the other hand, if one reads the old Zen stories of students and teachers slapping each other, questioning and teasing each other ... well, maybe the relationship of Zen teacher and student even in the "old times" was often closer to a mutual wrestling match (pretty much describes my relationship with Fugen and Mongen :roll: ), a dancing school where two must tango, "tangled vines" twisting in and around each other ... in which the teacher is a guide/coach pointing out the way ... but the student must ultimately do all the climbing of the mountain for his/herself.

Now that Zen has "Come West" to less "top-down" societies, to more so-called "democratic", "equalitarian" and questioning societies ... things may actually have gone too far the other way. I mean, almost nobody listens to the teachers any more or abides fully to the teacher's taught practices (as you can see around this place! :? ) Everyone just wants to "do their own thing", make their own practices and rituals and altars ... choose those practices from the dessert line of the "Buddhist cafeteria" which they find tasty, and leave the bitter spinach practices. The result is a great looseness and confusion, a kind of "spiritual materialism" teaching/teacher shopping for fashions and styles that are personally pleasing (not to be confused with finding the medicine among medicines which one truly needs ... a kind of positive "teacher/teaching shopping").

Gassho, J

[/quote]

Hi All,
I would like to weigh in on the student teacher relationship as I have learned from Japanese Tea culture. First and foremost the teacher student relationship is a very serious commitment by each. Much like marriage the two are entering into a lasting relationship. Therefore a student should select a teacher with much discrimination before committing to becoming their student(I thoroughly checked up on Jundo and Taigu before committing here). It's not so easy to get out of such a serious relationship once chosen. My mother in law(who is curently visiting us from Japan) has these words of wisdom which summerize things up quite well.

Before marriage keep both eyes open
After marriage close one eye

After becoming a student you do as you are told and don't question their word (Not meaning, by the way, that you follow blindly and aren't allowed to have questions!). This year's questions become next year's answers! Do not prematurely question the teachings until you have traveled long enough to truly see for yourself. You now have one eye closed and go on faith in the teacher and the teachings!

Gassho,
John

[Seiryu]

Re: GURUS AND TEACHERS

After becoming a student you do as you are told and don't question their word (Not meaning, by the way, that you follow blindly and aren't allowed to have questions!). This year's questions become next year's answers! Do not prematurely question the teachings until you have traveled long enough to truly see for yourself. You now have one eye closed and go on faith in the teacher and the teachings!

what a great way to look at it! Even the Buddha said, don't listen, but see for yourself. How can you see for yourself, if you don't know how to listen? The problem with gurus come from not knowing when to say no to them. When it doesn't work, it doesn't work...

_/_

Seiryu