Sitting posture

[Drut]

O.K. I'll do this...I'll do lotus position for 10 mins. and seiza for 20 and see if I can work into it. I need to go slow, however, because I need my knees to stay healthy my job. I jump in and out of a truck all day for Fedex and a third of my area is heavy industry with large boxes to manage. I 'm not big but I'm well adapted to lifting boxes at least. That adaptation has done nothing for my flexability though. Most people who have areas like mine can't scratch their own backs. I have sat seiza so long it has good associations for me. I'll try.

[Gregor]

Drut,

Burmese was a great intermediate posture for me before making the change from Seiza to half lotus, you might want to work it into your posture mix.

Hezb,

No air strikes here. Speaking from experience I've been one of those people you mentioned, so I think your point is 100% valid.

[paige]

A question for all the Yoga people out there: I've heard a few people who have to meditate lying down say that they use "corpse posture." What is that? Any pictures/instructions?

I'm not advocating lying down posture (so please Jundo don't hit me! :wink: ). But some days my muscles are too weak for me to even sit unsupported - especially on my right side. These are also the days when you lucky people get a break from my endless blathering here!

Thanks in advance.

[Don Niederfrank]

A question for all the Yoga people out there: I've heard a few people who have to meditate lying down say that they use "corpse posture." What is that? Any pictures/instructions?

I'm not advocating lying down posture (so please Jundo don't hit me! :wink: ). But some days my muscles are too weak for me to even sit unsupported - especially on my right side. These are also the days when you lucky people get a break from my endless blathering here!

Thanks in advance.

I am not qualified to teach, but my practice is to try to practice. When I am sitting I am less distracted from my practice but not kept from it. So, we practice weak of body (you) or weak of will (me).

My heart goes out to you in your weakness.
And you do not blather.

[Gregor]

Paige,

give savasana a try, its a great yoga posture, especially when you need to recharge. I've found Yoga practice to be a very benificial and rewarding part of my life.

Corpse pose instructions:

http://yoga.about.com/od/yogaposes/a/savasana.htm

[paige]

Thanks everyone. I experience Todd's Paralysis after an epileptic seizure, affecting my right arm and leg (I can walk, but I can't move my knee or ankle).

Usually it goes away pretty quickly. Sometimes though, it lasts all day, makes me pretty much immobilised. Savasana looks useful. Definitely am going to give the tight underpants (and body hair) a miss though...

Never liked them personally, but (like Gregor and Drut) I've noticed seiza benches are pretty popular in a lot of Japanese zendos. But an organisation can hardly call itself Dogen Sangha International without following the Fukan zazengi. Am I right, Jundo?

[Jundo]

Hey Guys,

I, personally, believe in standing, sitting, crouching, back flipping, walking, running, skipping, hopping, falling or spinning Zazen. All is good, so long as your mind is still amid the motion.

Here is a picture of the Buddha doing his reclining Zazen. Of course, he is said to have been on his death bed for this ... but I prefer to think he was just having back problems that day..



Gassho, Jundo

[BruceS]

Hmmm..... I can see elbow and wrist pain arising out of that posture. :lol:

[BruceS]

Not for me: I'm an airhead. 8)

H.

LOL I'm just thick! :lol: :lol:

[paige]

I wonder if the seiza posture may have become popular in Japanese Zen because of its use in martial arts?

Or is it used anywhere but Japan?

I've never seen anyone sitting seiza in Theravada or Chinese temples.

[will]

So many replies. Whew.

I tried really good leg streches that stretched your hip and knee joints so you could sit full lotus. After doing one leg it actually becomes longer than the other leg(until you streched the other leg too). It helped. I was able to sit very close to full lotus. But man why? If I do that my legs get sore and I can't skateboard.

I sit burmese sometimes, but usual I sit on the side of my hard bed with my zafu. I think the most important thing is to have a straight, solid and relaxed posture. To have a straight spine. I like to do other things with my legs.

I read part of sodo no gyoji by Tsugen Narasaki Roshi last night and he said it was a Japanese tradition to sit on the floor and was contemplating this sitting in chairs that westerners are accustom to. hmmm....

I know the white wind zen center allows people to sit in all postures according to their body. like if they have problem with their legs or back. Although, I have noticed that a lot of the problems really aren't problems just reactivity.

I don't know but isn't having a straight spine and solid posture what is important? As long as you pay attention to your posture. That's the thing about zazen isn't it. Like the posture has a lot to do with your state of mind. A slumped posture has a slumped mind. A straight and solid posture has a straight and solid mind or "more solid". I think the full lotus helps more with this. It is more grounded, but as long as you pay attention to your posture and how you are, it shouldn't be a problem to sit a different way.

The Buddha did what he did. I think the most important thing that he did was pay attention. Of course a straight posture helps.

I'll keep practicing and find out. Hehe.

gassho

[Gregor]

Definitely am going to give the tight underpants (and body hair) a miss though...
-Paige

Alas, for me the body hair is never optional.

[Drut]

An update. I'm still working on it. I can do the "Accomplished Pose" illustrated above but seiza..no bench/ pillow underneath though..is still my most satisfying positiion. I had already gone through all the pain management and pain "being with" already in that position over the years. If it weren't for my feet going to sleep I might just stick with that but I want to be able to sit for an hour at least. Half lotus is posible but painful for ten min.s maximum. Full lotus may take months. I don't get it. I could do full lotus when I was in my twenties. Sat three times today. I was having problems breathing smoothly so I just kept coming back. I finally realized it was because of an intercostal muscle that I strained a couple of days ago at work and thought was healed.

[Mika]

Hi all (I'll post introduction in the Introductions thread in a short while when I can think of something to say ).

I personally manage to do only half-assed burmese while sitting, but am trying to work my way to half-lotus (and ultimately full) in time by stretching etc. Talk about being flexible as an iron pole...

But anyway, many people mention offhandedly that one should try the lotus unless one has some medical condition that prevents it. But are there really such conditions that make it totally impossible for a person to ever achieve the joint movement required for lotus posture - even with proper help and exercises? Except having lost both legs of course.

I think many people may not be up for the task of making it work, but I like to think (at least keep hoping that I can do it someday) that it's not inherently impossible.

Oh and I seem to remember reading Brad Warner saying in one of his blog entries something along the lines that having the correct posture while doing zazen is even more important than what your mind is doing. Might've got it wrong though...

[Jundo]

Oh and I seem to remember reading Brad Warner saying in one of his blog entries something along the lines that having the correct posture while doing zazen is even more important than what your mind is doing. Might've got it wrong though...

Hi Mika,

Welcome again!

I also think that correct posture is extremely important, and that Lotus, followed by Burmese, is probably the best. Balance in body does facilitate balance in mind, and we believe that body-mind is one and whole.

That being said, I have found that many Japanese can be a bit rigid and incessant on the one "right" way to sit (this is a cultural aspect of the traditional arts), and about pushing oneself to conform to that 'One Way or the Highway' ... called a 'Kata' (if anyone has martial arts experience). Here is a little description (I cannot verify the source of the following, but I can verify the conclusion from 20 years living in Japan):

.... an immovable set of rules that govern what is and what is not accepted
as acceptable behavior or thinking in japan ... In reality, there are many “Ways” to do most things in Japan, although each
group will have a tendency to claim that its pattern is “the Way.” As a
medical researcher who has participated in procedures and experiments at
many dozens of Japanese hospitals, universities and the like, I know that no
two groups ever will follow exactly the same patterns. Each, however, will
have a tendency to explain that its way is “the Way,” usually because the
most senior person in the group will have come to that conclusion after
having learned it to be the thinking of some other person ... that the senior person respects. (Also, one must be
very careful in suggesting that a competing group might have a better way
which contradicts the opinion of a senior member of group). Every group in
every culture does this, but what is unusual in Japan is the inflexible,
almost mechanical way the system operates. The emphasis on proper “Kata”
(Boye de Menthe has a wonderful, hard to find little book on this) in
Japanese society is reminiscent of any conservative, tradition based
culture, though unique in the way is has developed to permit a functioning,
industrial society.

On the other hand, as with Oryoki eating (a wonderful example of "Kata"), there is a beauty if the fixed form that one can lose ones' 'self' in. So, "Kata" is also a good thing. Conforming to "classic" form has beneficial aspects, as does sometimes breaking free of classic form. As well, as you point out, some folks reject the Lotus position and such before really giving it a try.

So, I am more of the opinion that different approaches work a little better for different people, I think. You need to try different things, and see what works for you. It is not 'one size fits all'. However, the traditional forms have much good about them and should not be rejected before they are tried.

Gassho, Jundo