Sitting posture

[FeMonky]

HA HA

How would the Buddha sit?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to suppose that the/a Buddha would sit on their butt...
:lol:

[paige]

I put up a picture of myself as an avatar, but there's no way I'm going to tell y'all how much I weigh!

I sit full-lotus during zazen.

But I use half-lotus much of the time anyway, I'm too short to put my feet flat on the floor when I sit in a chair. And spending a long time with my feet dangling a couple of inches off the floor hurts my lower back. Maybe I could steal a computer desk and chair from the local elementary school :wink:

[Gregor]

After working at half lotus for about a week, I can say I'm sitting it now throughout Zazen, I'm switching back and forth between legs and resting in Burmese when I need to. The amazing thing is that I never believed I could do it. I had a lot of resistance to the idea of training myself to do this, I figured it was impossible. But, the discussion on Roshi's blog and here inspired me to do it. The physical limitations I thought I had were just delusions that I created. Its sort of eye opening to realize that I merely needed to have the will for this and now its something that I'm practicing everyday. It gives me a lot of confidence, something I'm actually quite short on. I don't like to admit this, but I'm realizing that throughout my life I have been insecure. So finding this confidence in myself through sitting Zazen in lotus is very rewarding for me. I'm going to keep working at it, I love the challenge.

[BruceS]

I've pretty much always sat in half lotus. I used to switch between left and right foot on the opposite thigh, but now I seem to only manage with the right. I wrecked my left knee skiing a few years ago so it can be quite painful if I bend it too much.

The problem I'm having now is with my lower back, and I think it may stem from always sitting half lotus in the same manner. If I sit seiza my back doesn't hurt. Maybe I should just sit Burmese now and then to give myself a break.

I've never felt comfortable sitting in a chair. Tried it a few times when my back was bothering me, but I just don't feel grounded. I can understand why lotus and half lotus is preferred.
Cheers,
Bruce

[Ryumon]

I find that my back hurts if I sit just on a zafu, so I stick a thick book (a dictionary) under the zafu, up to about the middle, to tilt it slightly.

Kirk

[BruceS]

I find that my back hurts if I sit just on a zafu, so I stick a thick book (a dictionary) under the zafu, up to about the middle, to tilt it slightly.

Kirk

Yeah that does seem to help me too. I've used a phone book, or just a couch cushion under the zafu. I also read somewhere about using a small cushion under a knee if it doesn't quite touch the zabuton. I'm not sure I have that problem, but I've wondered if it might help with the symmetry of my posture. I'm wondering if sitting in half lotus in the same way, all the time is creating a slight imbalance.
Cheers,
Bruce

[Gregor]

Good suggestion about sliding the book under the cushion. I've just been turning the Zafu on side to make it higher, but I'm going to try to slide my copy of War and Peace between the Zabuton and Zafu.

take care,

Greg

[Jundo]

Hi Guys,

The philosophy around here about sitting is that everyone should try out for themselves, and adjust, the fine points of sitting Lotus (Full and Half) and Burmese. Seiza and chair sitting is frowned upon, but tolerated as maybe necessary in some cases (I say this, although Nishijima is against it completely). So, everybody needs to try for themselves little touches like the book under the Zafu, etc.

One reason is that I cannot see how you are sitting unless we try by video, and even video consulting has its limitations too in that I cannot reach out and adjust your position (This issue, by the way, is one of the few hurdles in having this form of Sangha ... almost anything else is possible around here!). But there is another reason: There is a cultural tendency among the Japanese to insist that everyone do the same thing about the same way. It is what makes the Japanese, well, "Japanese". Sometimes, learning to do certain things in the "way"is fantastic practice, for example, in eating Oryoki style or in movements during a ritual or in the Zendo. But, for actual sitting, I believe that everyone has a different body type and different physical issues with knees and backs and such. I am particularly sensitive to this this morning, as I hiked Mt. Tsukuba yesterday after a long hiatus and, well, it is hard to stand up today!

So, please tinker away with the Full/Half Lotus and Burmese in minor ways. You will know when you are balanced because, quite simply, you will feel balanced, and generally comfortable in sitting for long stretches day after day. The proof is in the pudding. Just make sure you are not sagging in the back, that the back is straight, that the chin is tucked in and the head not dropping forward, and that you are not leaning to the side.

I am not, however, so crazy about pads under the knees and not getting one's knees on the floor flat. I would only do that one if there is a real problem, and all hope is gone of stretching the groin muscles and such to get the knees down.

Gassho, Jundo

[Gregor]

I tried using the book under the zafu, while concept of "sitting above war and peace" did seem very symbolic, I was more comfortable without the book and ended up just sitting with the cushion flat.

I'ts interesting that Jundo mentions making sure to get the knees flat on the floor, this was why I chose to get rid of the book, I think the key for me in "achieving" Half Louts has been doing the stretching and Yoga work on a daily basis. I think the best stretch for doing Lotus might just be sitting Lotus, if you catch my point ----> But my situation is different than somebody with physical problems, I'm a young guy in good health, just not as flexible as a I could be so of course the answer has been to stretch!

[BruceS]

I just finished my final sitting of the day and actually was able to switch legs in half lotus without my knee screaming at me. Guess what - my back was pain free!! I'm going to try sitting full lotus again. I can do it, just not perfectly, but the symmetry is so much better.

Well, off to sleep. It's 0145 here
Night all,
Bruce

[Gregor]

Bruce,

Glad to see things are going well for you with the sitting. It's a nice thing to be able to overcome the physical challenges of it --- It seems that I'm becoming very focused on the state of my body/posture for Zazen, but I think this is good. Good night and sleep well.

Jundo,

It is too bad that we can't get the input on our posture during the sitting we do here. But, as you say its a limitation of the medium. I am doing my best to be aware of my posture and develop it -- I think things are going well. I will be visiting Zen Mountain Monastery soon to attend a three day Zen training program, I should get the hands on posture coaching their. I'm glad you brought up this issue -- It will help me get the most out of the program.

[Drut]

Sorry if I missed it but although I see the purported "good" of full or half lotus what is the purported "bad" of seiza. Why is it frowned upon. I had started out from an Aikido background in the 70's where we were taught to sit seiza much as illustrated in the Zen Mountain Monastery link above. That same link btw is where I send people who ask me how to meditate. I sit seiza on a couch cushion with a thin pillow on top of my feet. No bench. My back is straight and my knees are on the floor lower than my butt. I could sit that way forever except my feet go seriously to sleep. If I go too long I can't stand for a minute. No feet there. Thirty five to fourty min.s is the most I dare try lest I damage myself. If you tell me not to sit seiza I won't but I am curious as to the why.

[BruceS]

Cheers Gregor! The bum knee is a bit sore this morning so I don't know how often I'll be putting it in that angle. The shops will only sell you so much Ibuprophen at a time in this country. :lol: I'll work something out though!

[Jundo]

Sorry if I missed it but although I see the purported "good" of full or half lotus what is the purported "bad" of seiza. Why is it frowned upon. I had started out from an Aikido background in the 70's where we were taught to sit seiza much as illustrated in the Zen Mountain Monastery link above. That same link btw is where I send people who ask me how to meditate. I sit seiza on a couch cushion with a thin pillow on top of my feet. No bench. My back is straight and my knees are on the floor lower than my butt. I could sit that way forever except my feet go seriously to sleep. If I go too long I can't stand for a minute. No feet there. Thirty five to fourty min.s is the most I dare try lest I damage myself. If you tell me not to sit seiza I won't but I am curious as to the why.

Hi Drut,

The basic principle is that balance of body facilitates balance of mind. For millenia, the Full Lotus, and to a lessor extent, the Half Lotus have been considered positions of great poise and balance. The Burmese position is also very balanced. The lifting of the rump, straightening of the back with slight curvature of the lower back, the stability of the legs with good circulation, the comfortable head position ... all lend themselves to our forgetting about the body during Zazen. Once mastered, they are intended as incredibly comfortable and stable positions ... not torture

My teacher, Nishijima, is against Seiza and, even more so, chairs. They do not provide such balance in his view, and furthermore, were not the tradition in the Zen schools. Now, the official "Soto" school line (for Westerners, at least) is that chairs, Seiza and Burmese are acceptable ... if not ideal.

Nishijima makes the valid point that many Westerners give up on the Lotus postures for lack of trying, lack of giving it time and stretching. He is right. He may be a little stubborn in not yielding on this issue to people's needs who have legitimate physical issues, and I sometimes think so (this is a very Japanese attitude ... Little story: I once asked my dentist in Tokyo the difference between his Japanese patients and Western patients. He answered that there are two main differences. First, Westerners ask more questions about the procedure. Second, Westerners complain more, moan more and have less pain tolerance. What is true for teeth, is also true for Zazen.)

So, you should try both Lotus and Seiza and make up your own mind. However, if you are physically capable of Lotus, that is the best I think.

The philosophy around Treeleaf Sangha about sitting is that everyone should try out for themselves, and adjust, the fine points of sitting Lotus (Full and Half) and Burmese. Seiza and chair sitting, is tolerated as maybe necessary in some cases, if there is a true and uncorrectable physical need.

So, please tinker away with the Full/Half Lotus and Burmese in minor ways. You will know when you are balanced because, quite simply, you will feel balanced, and generally comfortable in sitting for long stretches day after day. The proof is in the pudding. Just make sure you are not sagging in the back, that the back is straight, that the chin is tucked in and the head not dropping forward, and that you are not leaning to the side.

Getting one's knees on the floor flat is important, and if you can't temporarily putting pads or cushions under the knees until you can by stretching the groin muscles and such to get the knees down.

Because I cannot help with posture because of the distance (one of the few things we cannot do in this Sangha because of distance), I am recommending folks to consult with a local Yoga instructor in your area about getting in a good Lotus or Half-Lotus, or Burmese if needed, posture (just bring your Zafu when you do, as some Yoga folks do it slightly differently, sitting directly on the floor).

If you float around this Forum, you will find lots of discussion threads on sitting tips.

Remember too that "Zazen" is not only the times we spend on the cushion. So, sitting, crouching, back flipping, walking, running, skipping, hopping, falling or spinning is also Zazen (we still must spend that time on the cushion however). Thus, I do often "sit" Zazen other places, such as in a car ...

http://blog.beliefnet.com/treeleafzen/2 ... sic-1.html

Gassho, Jundo (I used to sit mostly Full Lotus. Now, I mix Full, Half and Burmese)

[Ryumon]

You know, I don't think dissing chairs is a good thing. Stting in a chair with your back against the chairback may not be good for meditation, but it is perfectly possible to sit on a chair with your back free, or to sit on a stool. Perhaps Gudo is against chairs because of the usual sitting position?

Kirk