Sitting posture

[Ryumon]

A question on the Dogen Sangha blog asked if full- or half-lotus are necessary. Nishijima's answer, as follows, smacks as "fundamentalist" in a way:

Thank you very much for your questions, and unfortunately to the first question whether we can select another posture other than the Full Lotus Posture or Half Lotus Posture, my answers are negative.

Because the Full Lotus Posture or Half Lotus Posture have been used since when Gautama Buddha has begun the practice of Zazen, and such kinds of methods haven't been changed for about 2,500 years in Buddhist Societies at all. Therefore if we want to change the method of practice, it suggests that we want to change the Gautama Buddha'practice itself, and so it suggests that we want to change the Buddhist teachings themselves. Therefore it is completely impossible for me to avoid the method of Half Lotus Posture or Full Lotus Posture.



Even though in Soto Sect recently they sometimes recommend for secular practioners to use chairs for Zazen, but I think that such a kind of idea might be serious rebellion against Gautama Buddhas' teachings.

I know Jundo doesn't feel this way, and many Zen teachers do not feel this way either. Why such rigidity? Why say that anyone who can't manage to sit in that position can't practice Zen?

Kirk

[Jun]

It must be remembered that Buddhism borrowed heavily from the yogic practices that preceded it. The Buddha practised these yogic aesthetic methods and naturally he adopted them. Frescos and stellas in India dating back over 5000 years show yoga practitioners sitting in the padmasanam posture.

Although many traditions today don't know the reasons behind (or even acknowledge them) the various mudra and postures are all inherently a major element of Buddhist practice. If the Buddha had meditated under the Bodhi tree on a chair I'm sure that would today be seen as the "correct" way to practice. So is it simply imitation then? Are we simply imitating the Buddha physically?

To the Buddha, as evidenced by reading through early Pali texts, the physical body was as important as the mind in practice and the various postures and mudras were seen as ways of both expressing and achieving spiritual awareness. What distinguishes the yogic postures from everyday poses is the attitude, the intentional awareness of the practitioner.

The various fixed postures and mudras of Buddhism were used to still the body and mind, to bring union and to express an activeness of practice.

Many today brush this off as esoteric practices only found within Vajrayana.

[Jundo]

Hi Guys,

I have had this discussion with Nishijima a few times. He happens to be a 45 kilo Japanese man, and I have told him many times that it is easier for him to do the full Lotus than many fat Westerners like myself.

Anyway, as I understand his position (and I agree), it is best to do the Full Lotus or Half Lotus if you can manage it. If not, it is okay to use Burmese, then aspire to work up to the Lotus. Other positions like Seiza or a chair are not really good, and should be avoided if possible (I am more forgiving on this part than my teacher). Myself, I mix it up between Full Lotus, Half Lotus and Burmese.

Gassho, Jundo (90 kilos).

[Gregor]

I've been using a seiza bench, because its been the most comfortable and easy thing for me to use. But, this week after reading the post at Master Nishijima's blog, I've decided to get rid of the bench and work at sitting in the lotus posture. I can manage a pretty decent Burmese position and it seems that the more I sit Burmese and stretch the leg muscles, it becomes easier to sit in Lotus. Today for the first time ever I managed to sit in a good half lotus, it was only for a couple of minutes, but it seems like things are loosening up.

At 6'4, and 250 lbs . . . Lotus ain't gonna be an easy thing for me, but I just plan on trying to maintain it a few more extra minutes a day. I need to be careful and not injure myself, just take it easy. I'm going to start taking Yoga classes again, gonna enroll in a nine week program starting next week, that's gonna help for sure. . .put just as in Zazen, daily practice is going to be essential. I just have make the time for it. Gonna go for three minutes in half lotus, right now. . .I'll report back on how well I do.

Gassho,

Gregor (113 kilos)

[Jundo]

Hi Greg,

Thank you for some particularly nice comments on the Blog recently. Wisdom!

Most important thing in transitioning to the lotus is that you manage to get you knees (both of them) flat on the ground, not up in the air. The feet (one or both, depending on half or full) should find a comfortable position and 'stretch' that you can hold for an extended period, high up the leg if possible. (look at various photos. Here is one):

http://www.mro.org/zmm/teachings/meditation.php

As with most things in Zazen, you will know it is right because you will feel the balance and very comfortable. If you feel unbalanced, or uncomfortable most of the time, then you need to work on it more.

Gassho, Jundo

[cdshrack]

since the last discussion on this topic i have been sitting half lotus, mostly with my left foot on top. it usually takes a minute or two for my hip to loosen up enough for me to get relaxed and fully stable, but it works. i try to alternate sometimes (like this morning) with my right foot on top, but it would seem that my right knee (which hasn't had any surgery) is still tight and full of plika (sp?) and frequently upset - so i spent most of the sitting being out of sorts and trying to settle into a stable position.

so i've been trying to do two sittings when possible - a long one and a short one and having the right leg on top for the short sitting for the sake of stretching it. no luck with it getting any better yet... and always nervous that it'll affect my work, so i don't push too hard.

that from a 6'0, 135lb guy - you'd think i'd be fine.

cd (63kg, 181cm)

[Hans]

Hello fellow Treeleafers!

Finally I've got some time to write something. On one hand Nishijima Senseis comments just sound a bit extreme, but on the other hand he is just recommending the one thing he has been doing for the last sixty years. In a way his opinion is very honest and sincere, since one could argue that only something oneself has done for a very long time can get one's honest stamp of approval. The thing is that Nishijima sensei probably hasn't used chairs and Seiza benches for prolonged periods of time and thus simply won't recommend them....or he's just a stubborn radical or both at the same time. I personally think it's mainly a question of keeping one's spine straight and finding the best possible balance, in order to be able to effectively drop body and mind.

I've been lucky in the sense that even at times when I didn't work-out at all, my genetic predisposition made sure I was still very "stretchy" and flexible. I bought Iyengar's Illustrated Light on Yoga a few years ago and kept doing the exercises he recommended as full lotus preparation for a few weeks, after that I slowly managed to extend the full-lotus sitting time. I love committed Zazen-practice and try to push me once in a while to see how long I can sit without it getting REALLY painful, but the bottom line for me is, that my healthy knees mean more to me the ability to set a new Guinness-record for sitting time. Ruining my knees is not on my Zazen to do list. A bit of pain, a bit of hardship, no problem, but everything in moderation please. This is after all supposed to be the Middle Way.


Gassho,

Hans

[Jun]

How would the Buddha sit?

[Gregor]

Jundo,

Thanks for the Lotus advice, I'm getting my knees on the ground and have good balance, but I end up bailing out after a short amount of time due to pain in my thigh caused by my foot pressing against it. I cannot get my foot to the top of the thigh, it's at the bottom of it. . .but I'm gonna keep working it. Perhaps I'll do some yoga before each Zazen sitting? Do you think a twenty minute Yoga routine done right before Zazen would be compatible with Zen practice?

[Jundo]

Hi Greg,

I think a little yoga or other stretching is fine.

Looking at my feet during full and half lotus, at least one of my feet (in full) and the only foot (in half) tends to rest in the line formed where the leg folds over, behind the knee. In full, the other foot is pretty high up the thigh, but I cannot easily get both high up the thing.

The most important thing, though, is that the two knees are flat on the floor.

Maybe I will do full lotus with the camera tonight. Been riding a bike all over town today, so don't want to get leg cramps! ;-(

Gassho, Jundo

[wills]

How would the Buddha sit?

Is this a koan? I thought we didn't do those here. :wink:

[Jun]

How would the Buddha sit?

Is this a koan? I thought we didn't do those here. :wink:

:wink:

[Jundo]

How would the Buddha sit?

Is this a koan? I thought we didn't do those here. :wink:

We do them. We just don't do them DURING Zazen. :wink: :wink:

Gassho, Jundo

[Don Niederfrank]

How would the Buddha sit?

Not to mock the question at all because it is a good one, but I did read this and think 'Maybe we should have rubber bracelets with the initials 'HWBS'.

[Don Niederfrank]

fwiw, I'm reminded of saying to a local teacher before a 2-day sitting, 'I don't know how much of the two days I can sit.' and she said to my overly-attached mind, "It's not a constest."

I don't know about you folks, but I need to work on not evaluating my breathing before I start working on getting my legs "right". :lol: