Yep, rebirth again...

[disastermouse]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

... that there never was any death from the start, nor birth either.

This is a pretty profound realization, IMHO, especially if you get a glimpse of it. Oddly, there can still be terror of death at times.

We want everything settled.....but it's already sttled, even as it's unsettled. That IS settled.

Once again, IMHO.

Chet

[Dosho]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

Chet,

I very much appreciate and respect that folks like you and Stephanie consider questions like this, but when I start doing this myself I find that I tend to be getting away from my practice. And when I jump back into practice they tend to fall away. The questions are always there, in that monkey mind of ours, but even when I spend a whole day considering such questions I have never found that I do anything differently. It is one of the oldest go to metaphors that one can go to in zen (and one that is apt for the mountain environment in which I was raised) but no matter what the answer I will continue to fetch water and chop wood.

That's really all I have to say.

Gassho,
Dosho

[disastermouse]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

Chet,

I very much appreciate and respect that folks like you and Stephanie consider questions like this, but when I start doing this myself I find that I tend to be getting away from my practice. And when I jump back into practice they tend to fall away. The questions are always there, in that monkey mind of ours, but even when I spend a whole day considering such questions I have never found that I do anything differently. It is one of the oldest go to metaphors that one can go to in zen (and one that is apt for the mountain environment in which I was raised) but no matter what the answer I will continue to fetch water and chop wood.

That's really all I have to say.

Gassho,
Dosho

That's a good point, Dosho, but (and although I could be misguided), so much of what I've failed to grasp in this path has specifically to do with matters outside of zazen. You've seen me struggle with Right Speech specifically. Karma and rebirth, as troublesome as the concepts are in our modern times, were and for many still are an integral part of the Buddha's teachings on morality. Before we discard them as the folly of a superstitious culture, it may do to examine why they were considered so important as to survive so long.

When I go to sleep, my mind first has dreams but then descends into deep, dreamless sleep. Egoically, I'm effectively dead. When I wake up, there is an illusion that there is some thread of consciousness that is consistent from the Chet who goes to bed and the one who wakes up the next morning, but is there really? Per Nagarjuna, everything is such flux that nothing can even be said to exist, so on one level, the idea that there is a persistent entity even from moment to moment is an absurdity. You can see this during zazen, when so much of what we consider to be the workings of 'our' mind is random non sequitur - coming from conditions that form the basis of the next random thought, although the connections are anything but immediately evident. Still, the illusion is so persistent! The Chet who drinks sixteen beers before he passes out is wholly different from the Chet who wakes up to a real humdinger of a hangover. They are not the same person, but the actions of the former have a very negative effect on the latter. I can't be certain that some shred of this illusion passes from death to rebirth, but taking into account what effects the actions and thoughts I have today may have on some unfortunate creature in the future certainly gives me pause - a pause that is not so powerful as the idea that I'm simply gone and my actions have no more than the relatively immediate effects in the here and now.

Firewood does indeed become ashes and ashes do not become firewood...but neither do they remain ashes for an eternity.

Chet

[Ryumon]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

I would contest your assertion that in "deep, dreamless sleep" you are "egoically, ... effectively dead." The brain, while not dreaming, is doing a lot of other things, which are consolidating your memories, and (re)constructing your "self." There is no break in the thread of consciousness; it's just that you can't detect that consciousness.

Chet, you use a lot of words. (I know, I'm like that myself.) Have you read James Austin's Zen and the Brain? I think you would find it interesting. He's a Zen practitioner and neurologist, and he looks at both meditation and neuroscience in the book. It's not an easy read, but it covers a large number of issues that you raise. He also has two other books on the subject, written more recently, which may be easier to approach as a first read, but they do build on Zen and the Brain.

[Fuken]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

I would contest your assertion that in "deep, dreamless sleep" you are "egoically, ... effectively dead." The brain, while not dreaming, is doing a lot of other things, which are consolidating your memories, and (re)constructing your "self." There is no break in the thread of consciousness; it's just that you can't detect that consciousness.

Chet, you use a lot of words. (I know, I'm like that myself.) Have you read James Austin's Zen and the Brain? I think you would find it interesting. He's a Zen practitioner and neurologist, and he looks at both meditation and neuroscience in the book. It's not an easy read, but it covers a large number of issues that you raise. He also has two other books on the subject, written more recently, which may be easier to approach as a first read, but they do build on Zen and the Brain.

Ooh! I listened to a series of lectures from Upaya from him. Fascinating stuff. Actually If I recall he makes a lot of correlation's to the Mahayana sutras.

[Ryumon]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

Lectures by Austin? Do you have links? His work is fascinating.

He has a new book due out in September which looks interesting:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0262015870

I find all of this stuff very interesting. In part because I've long been interested in consciousness and cognitive science (since I read Gödel Escher Bach back in the early 80s), and because I have a brain condition that has led me to look much more closely at how the brain works.

[Fuken]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

Lectures by Austin? Do you have links? His work is fascinating.

He has a new book due out in September which looks interesting:


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0262015870

They are hidden in the "Zen brain" podcasts from Upaya. If you have iTunes you shoul be able to find them by looking up Upaya. I'd link it but I am not cleaver enough to figure out how to do it from my iPad.

[Kyonin]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

None of this proves that rebirth is real. However, it goes a long way toward showing that rebirth is not invalid simply because it can not be replicated in a lab.

Hi!

I never said rebirth isn't real or invalid. It's just that at this time it can't be studied under controlled conditions. Who knows, maybe in time we develop enough understanding to go further into the mystery of death.

There are a lot mind processes like happiness or meditation that can be studied and replicated, thus giving us a bigger picture and a lot more to study.

I am a skeptic because I think no matter how much you believe in rebirth, it's just a very nice idea with no proof of existence.

To me it doesn't matter. I couldn't care less about what will happens after I die. I guess I'll know when I'm there.

What matters is living by the precepts and the dharma, right here, right now.

Sit Zazen and become water gettin' soaking wet!

[Hans]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

Hello,

what I found interesting in the rebirth debate between Mr. Batchelor and Mr. Thurman a few years ago (used to be available online - but not for free anymore it seems) was the fact that the bottom line for the very conservative Robert Thurman seems to have been that only a belief in rebirth can give practitioners the needed extra push to take dharma practise and the results of their actions seriously.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Ryumon]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

Lectures by Austin? Do you have links? His work is fascinating.

He has a new book due out in September which looks interesting:


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0262015870

They are hidden in the "Zen brain" podcasts from Upaya. If you have iTunes you shoul be able to find them by looking up Upaya. I'd link it but I am not cleaver enough to figure out how to do it from my iPad.

Got it. I have them, and haven't listened. There were, I think, two series of "Zen brain" podcasts. I'll give them a listen.

[Jundo]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

Hi Chet,

... that there never was any death from the start, nor birth either.

This is a pretty profound realization, IMHO, especially if you get a glimpse of it. Oddly, there can still be terror of death at times.

Not "odd" really. There are parts of the mind/brain that can pierce "no life/no death" ... there are other parts of the mind/brain that get very scared, whimper like a baby in the face of a hungry tiger. All can happen, and be part of our humanity, at once. Even though I no longer "fear death" in some ways ... my knees will shake at appropriate times too.

There are a few Koans on that in fact.

so much of what I've failed to grasp in this path has specifically to do with matters outside of zazen. You've seen me struggle with Right Speech specifically. Karma and rebirth, as troublesome as the concepts are in our modern times, were and for many still are an integral part of the Buddha's teachings on morality. Before we discard them as the folly of a superstitious culture, it may do to examine why they were considered so important as to survive so long. ... The Chet who drinks sixteen beers before he passes out is wholly different from the Chet who wakes up to a real humdinger of a hangover.

I agree that Karma, like the concept of "sin" in Christianity, served as an integral part of personal and social morality ... besides any cosmic aspects. Fear of hell fires/an unpleasant rebirth kept the citizens well behaved and obedient. I do feel, however (like many "humanists" who have pointed out that atheists and agnostics tend to behave just as morally, if not more so, than many religious folks) that we can still maintain Buddhist ethics and morality without a concept of "1 to 1 payback" Karma and literal rebirth.

On the other hand, I would not say the same about Right Speech and the Precepts. One cannot nurture the fruits of this Buddhist Way if regularly stepping on the Precepts by wallowing in greed, anger and ignorance. Gentle Right Speech is one component of that which should not be neglected too. Same for over drinking and indulging without moderation and non-craving, non-attachment. So, please do not consider these "dispensible".

Gassho, J

[disastermouse]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

I would contest your assertion that in "deep, dreamless sleep" you are "egoically, ... effectively dead." The brain, while not dreaming, is doing a lot of other things, which are consolidating your memories, and (re)constructing your "self." There is no break in the thread of consciousness; it's just that you can't detect that consciousness.

Do you see what you did there? I never implied that the brain was effectively dead, I argued that the ego was effectively dead. It's not that I can't detect the consciousness, it's that during deep dreamless sleep, there is no 'I', regardless of the minimal reparative activities of the brain. Brain activity =/= mind without remainder, because although the two are correlative, not all brain activity results in self-awareness. Also, the two realms although correlative, are nowhere near the same. Serotonin is powerful in feelings of well-being, but the internal experience of happiness is not registered as "Wow, I have increased levels of certain brain chemicals today!". Likewise, each realm affects the other, which is why antidepressants do not effectively render cognitive or other forms of psychotherapy utterly useless. This is to say that although the temptation is to reduce mind to a one-way projection of brain, this is hardly the full truth of it - altering the mind's landscape through subjective (meditation) and intersubjective (therapy) means can at times have a pronounced effect on the functions of the brain.


Jundo,

Consider metta - do we know conclusively that our thoughts have an effect on the 'recipients' of our metta? Hardly - but the exercise has profound effects on the practitioner. So it may be with rebirth.

On the other hand, I would not say the same about Right Speech and the Precepts. One cannot nurture the fruits of this Buddhist Way if regularly stepping on the Precepts by wallowing in greed, anger and ignorance. Gentle Right Speech is one component of that which should not be neglected too. Same for over drinking and indulging without moderation and non-craving, non-attachment. So, please do not consider these "dispensible".

Did I give the impression that I thought this was dispensable, or are you making the point that the precepts are more primary since you can have a Buddhism without rebirth but not a Buddhism without the precepts?

Chet

Chet

[Ryumon]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

On the other hand, I would not say the same about Right Speech and the Precepts. One cannot nurture the fruits of this Buddhist Way if regularly stepping on the Precepts by wallowing in greed, anger and ignorance. Gentle Right Speech is one component of that which should not be neglected too. Same for over drinking and indulging without moderation and non-craving, non-attachment. So, please do not consider these "dispensible".

Sure, these are moral values, not superstitions (in the sense of things that cannot be proven). They have nothing to do, in my opinion, with any religion, spirituality or philosophy. They were grafted onto many religions, because pre-modern humans had no difference between religion and societal structures. And now, many religions claim that without their god, such moral values can't exist. Alas, they tend to cite statements from people like Dostoyevsky or Nietzsche, as if they were prophets, claiming that since god is dead, all is permitted...

[Ryumon]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

I would contest your assertion that in "deep, dreamless sleep" you are "egoically, ... effectively dead." The brain, while not dreaming, is doing a lot of other things, which are consolidating your memories, and (re)constructing your "self." There is no break in the thread of consciousness; it's just that you can't detect that consciousness.

Do you see what you did there? I never implied that the brain was effectively dead, I argued that the ego was effectively dead. It's not that I can't detect the consciousness, it's that during deep dreamless sleep, there is no 'I', regardless of the minimal reparative activities of the brain. Brain activity =/= mind without remainder, because although the two are correlative, not all brain activity results in self-awareness. Also, the two realms although correlative, are nowhere near the same. Serotonin is powerful in feelings of well-being, but the internal experience of happiness is not registered as "Wow, I have increased levels of certain brain chemicals today!". Likewise, each realm affects the other, which is why antidepressants do not effectively render cognitive or other forms of psychotherapy utterly useless. This is to say that although the temptation is to reduce mind to a one-way projection of brain, this is hardly the full truth of it - altering the mind's landscape through subjective (meditation) and intersubjective (therapy) means can at times have a pronounced effect on the functions of the brain.

Because the brain does create the mind, which, in turn, creates the self (or, since we're in a Zen buddhist forum, the illusion of the self). The consciousness during sleep is below the level that you can notice. And I'd see that even during dreams this is the case. You only remember them when you awaken during a dream, yet you dream many times during the night.

Reminds me of something; I don't know who said it. Descartes was wrong. It shouldn't be "I think, therefore I am," but rather, "I am, therefore I think."

[Dosho]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

That's a good point, Dosho, but (and although I could be misguided), so much of what I've failed to grasp in this path has specifically to do with matters outside of zazen. You've seen me struggle with Right Speech specifically. Karma and rebirth, as troublesome as the concepts are in our modern times, were and for many still are an integral part of the Buddha's teachings on morality. Before we discard them as the folly of a superstitious culture, it may do to examine why they were considered so important as to survive so long.

Perhaps dropping the idea that you are struggling with Right Speech is something else to drop? If I have learned nothing else from this practice it is that I was far too concerned about doing things "right" or "wrong" in a very intellectual "let's debate everything" way. Of course if I swore like a sailor (not saying you do) that might present a problem at Grandma's bingo night (or not if she's winning)...but I would not be inherently "bad" even if I did so.

So, it may be a minor distinction, but I think it might help to say that you are working with Right Speech (as are we all) rather than struggling with it.

Just a thought.

Gassho,
Dosho