Yep, rebirth again...

[Hoyu]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

Saijun wrote:
Having said that, when I die Perry/Saijun is gone forever. I am a conditioned being, and when those conditions are done, I'm gone. I am a result of everything that has happened to me in this life, and when this life is done, that's all she wrote for me.

Hi Saijun,

I like how you word it here as a conditioned being, and when those conditions are done bye bye. The only thing I have a hard time wrapping my mind around is this. After stripping away the mental being(Perry's mind) and the physical being(Perry's body) what exactly is left over to even be carried over into a new body/mind? Let alone how it would get in there and where it would reside once there? I wonder if the Buddha ever clearly defined what he felt is carried over from old life to new? I hope this doesn't come off as challenging your beliefs, it's not my intention, I'm really just curious.


Gassho,
John

[Hoyu]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

I've had enough time to verify the teachings that I can accept things that I don't necessarily have proof of; I know that the teachings are correct and this verification can be done in the here-and-now. Once one realizes that, over and over again, what's being taught is correct and true in one's own life, it becomes easier to entertain the notion of things that you can't prove or disprove right this second.

Hi Saijun,

After re-reading your post this may very well be enough to answer my questions!

Gassho,
John

[Saijun]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

Saijun wrote:
Having said that, when I die Perry/Saijun is gone forever. I am a conditioned being, and when those conditions are done, I'm gone. I am a result of everything that has happened to me in this life, and when this life is done, that's all she wrote for me.

Hi Saijun,

I like how you word it here as a conditioned being, and when those conditions are done bye bye. The only thing I have a hard time wrapping my mind around is this. After stripping away the mental being(Perry's mind) and the physical being(Perry's body) what exactly is left over to even be carried over into a new body/mind? Let alone how it would get in there and where it would reside once there? I wonder if the Buddha ever clearly defined what he felt is carried over from old life to new? I hope this doesn't come off as challenging your beliefs, it's not my intention, I'm really just curious.


Gassho,
John

Hello John,

Not at all; it's a good question.

The best way that I can put it conceptually is that the ego carries on; the three "poisons," i.e., greed, aversion, and ignorance make up the ego and propel it on. For one to be reborn again and again, there have to be conditions, just as for one to awaken, there have to be conditions (that bring you to the gate of the unconditioned).

So, it's like an etch-a-sketch (remember those?) The drawing is subject to knobs being twiddled. When we die, it's like someone shaking the picture out (except for the purposes of this simile, it's a very bad etch-a-sketch and there is residue [karma/vipaka] still sort of left on after the shaking). Awakening is when the etch-a-sketch is put down. No more holding on to it, no more twiddling the knobs to make the picture just so. Just set it down and don't bother trying to make things anymore.

It's a weak simile at best, but that's basically all I've got at the moment.

Hope it clarifies my thoughts for you (lord knows they're murky enough for me...)

Metta and Gassho,

Saijun

[disastermouse]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

Saijun wrote:
Having said that, when I die Perry/Saijun is gone forever. I am a conditioned being, and when those conditions are done, I'm gone. I am a result of everything that has happened to me in this life, and when this life is done, that's all she wrote for me.

Hi Saijun,

I like how you word it here as a conditioned being, and when those conditions are done bye bye. The only thing I have a hard time wrapping my mind around is this. After stripping away the mental being(Perry's mind) and the physical being(Perry's body) what exactly is left over to even be carried over into a new body/mind? Let alone how it would get in there and where it would reside once there? I wonder if the Buddha ever clearly defined what he felt is carried over from old life to new? I hope this doesn't come off as challenging your beliefs, it's not my intention, I'm really just curious.


Gassho,
John

Hello John,

Not at all; it's a good question.

The best way that I can put it conceptually is that the ego carries on; the three "poisons," i.e., greed, aversion, and ignorance make up the ego and propel it on. For one to be reborn again and again, there have to be conditions, just as for one to awaken, there have to be conditions (that bring you to the gate of the unconditioned).

So, it's like an etch-a-sketch (remember those?) The drawing is subject to knobs being twiddled. When we die, it's like someone shaking the picture out (except for the purposes of this simile, it's a very bad etch-a-sketch and there is residue [karma/vipaka] still sort of left on after the shaking). Awakening is when the etch-a-sketch is put down. No more holding on to it, no more twiddling the knobs to make the picture just so. Just set it down and don't bother trying to make things anymore.

It's a weak simile at best, but that's basically all I've got at the moment.

Hope it clarifies my thoughts for you (lord knows they're murky enough for me...)

Metta and Gassho,

Saijun

I'm fascinated by your description, as I've often described it as a stain when trying to describe my own understanding.

Chet

[Hoyu]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

Saijun wrote:
So, it's like an etch-a-sketch (remember those?) The drawing is subject to knobs being twiddled. When we die, it's like someone shaking the picture out (except for the purposes of this simile, it's a very bad etch-a-sketch and there is residue [karma/vipaka] still sort of left on after the shaking). Awakening is when the etch-a-sketch is put down. No more holding on to it, no more twiddling the knobs to make the picture just so. Just set it down and don't bother trying to make things anymore.

Wow that's a great simile! Thank you!

Gassho,
John

[Seiryu]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

Saijun wrote:
So, it's like an etch-a-sketch (remember those?) The drawing is subject to knobs being twiddled. When we die, it's like someone shaking the picture out (except for the purposes of this simile, it's a very bad etch-a-sketch and there is residue [karma/vipaka] still sort of left on after the shaking). Awakening is when the etch-a-sketch is put down. No more holding on to it, no more twiddling the knobs to make the picture just so. Just set it down and don't bother trying to make things anymore.

Wow that's a great simile! Thank you!

Gassho,
John

I second that! what a great way to look at him.

Gassho

Seiryu

[Fuken]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

For my two bits, I I think that if we are observant of it we can see for ourselves that we are born and die each moment. so yes we have a constant cycle of rebirth. But your ego might not recognize it as it sees itself as a constant. Even before the “you” that your ego recognizes was ever around the stuff that makes you up was here. And long after anything that could be recognized as you is around (you decompose) the stuff that made you up will still be here and get incorporated into something else.

So yes we are constantly reborn, the you that existed before you read this little tidbit is already dead. Now in this moment you are reborn, woops, your dead again…oh look at that your reborn, ad nausea. But at the same time you were always here, and always will be.

*Edit* Always is used loosly; as I have no idea what always looks like.

[Amelia]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

I don't know what will happen when I die. Maybe I'll find out when I die. Maybe I won't. Maybe I won't "die". All I have are various ideas and imaginings, which may or may not look like the "truth".

[Ryumon]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

For my two bits, I I think that if we are observant of it we can see for ourselves that we are born and die each moment. so yes we have a constant cycle of rebirth. But your ego might not recognize it as it sees itself as a constant. Even before the “you” that your ego recognizes was ever around the stuff that makes you up was here. And long after anything that could be recognized as you is around (you decompose) the stuff that made you up will still be here and get incorporated into something else.

So yes we are constantly reborn, the you that existed before you read this little tidbit is already dead. Now in this moment you are reborn, woops, your dead again…oh look at that your reborn, ad nausea. But at the same time you were always here, and always will be.

*Edit* Always is used loosly; as I have no idea what always looks like.

But that sort of metaphor is _not at all_ what is intended by rebirth. You can explain it away if you want, but read some of the old texts that discuss rebirth and you'll see that this is not what they're getting at.

Interestingly, the Dalai Lama has said that he wonders if there will, indeed, be another Dalai Lama. This comes in the context of discussions about rebirth, suggesting that he isn't fully convinced.

[Fuken]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

For my two bits, I I think that if we are observant of it we can see for ourselves that we are born and die each moment. so yes we have a constant cycle of rebirth. But your ego might not recognize it as it sees itself as a constant. Even before the “you” that your ego recognizes was ever around the stuff that makes you up was here. And long after anything that could be recognized as you is around (you decompose) the stuff that made you up will still be here and get incorporated into something else.

So yes we are constantly reborn, the you that existed before you read this little tidbit is already dead. Now in this moment you are reborn, woops, your dead again…oh look at that your reborn, ad nausea. But at the same time you were always here, and always will be.

*Edit* Always is used loosly; as I have no idea what always looks like.

But that sort of metaphor is _not at all_ what is intended by rebirth. You can explain it away if you want, but read some of the old texts that discuss rebirth and you'll see that this is not what they're getting at.

Interestingly, the Dalai Lama has said that he wonders if there will, indeed, be another Dalai Lama. This comes in the context of discussions about rebirth, suggesting that he isn't fully convinced.

Interesting that you say that. Maybe I read the old texts differently. But maybe my understanding will change in my next life. :wink:

[Hoyu]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

Fuken wrote:
Interesting that you say that. Maybe I read the old texts differently. But maybe my understanding will change in my next life.

:lol:

Gassho,
John

P.S. I like the new avatar photo Fuken!

[Kyonin]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

Ah one of the great topics in Buddhism.

I for one, am a skeptic. I think what matters is that you live by the precepts here and now, no matter what lies for after death.

Until rebirth can be replicated in controlled conditions in a lab, under the scientific method, I remain a skeptic.

[disastermouse]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

Ah one of the great topics in Buddhism.

I for one, am a skeptic. I think what matters is that you live by the precepts here and now, no matter what lies for after death.

Until rebirth can be replicated in controlled conditions in a lab, under the scientific method, I remain a skeptic.

Ah, a common theme of Scientific Materialism is that all 'internal' events are the effects of external process (Reducing the subjective and intersubjective to objective processes without remainder). However, there is a performative contradiction and a queer lack of acknowledgement in making that value judgment. When you say that all subjective experiences are due to objective causes, you are making a subjective leap that the facts do not support. We can say that a brain and a mind arise together, but not that one causes another. There is correlation not causation. Indeed, it can be shown that either one can affect the other. Furthermore, you are failing to acknowledge the subjective and intersubjective processes required to arrive at the judgment that subjective and intersubjective phenomena can be attributed to wholly to objective phenomena without remainder.

But the subjective and intersubjective can be validated scientifically if you can relent that 'scientific' need not require 'external'. Post-Kuhnian understanding of what he termed 'paradigm' (the term has been rendered meaningless by decades of misuse) has shown how previous scientific models, although functional, although meeting all of Popper's requirements for validation, are nonetheless shown later to be, if not outrightly 'wrong', certainly incomplete. This isn't a repudiation of Popper, merely an acknowledgment that although useful, Popper's process is not the whole story. This is why both Newtonian physics and Einsteinian physics can both be 'correct' even though they fundamentally oppose one another in many, many aspects. Each is a different paradigm. Hell, post-modernism says they're both driven by power dynamics and inherently untrue, although this is ALSO a performative contradiction since if all means of arriving at truth are simply the result of power, so is post-modernism! :shock:

Further, take mathematics. Following your line of reason, mathematics is not 'scientific'. Show me the square root of -1 in a lab. I'll wait.

Finally, there CAN be a scientific method of internals - in fact, Zen Buddhism proposes one of the most sound of these that you can find. Following the Scientific Method:

Zazen (injuction/experiment)
Realization (direct apprehension/result)
Dokusan/Transmission (communal validation/peer evaluation)

None of this proves that rebirth is real. However, it goes a long way toward showing that rebirth is not invalid simply because it can not be replicated in a lab.

(Much of this argument is not original - I owe much of this to Ken Wilber.)

Chet

[Risho]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

I was going to say it doesn't matter because it's just belief and speculation, but I think the way we live our lives always comes down to our belief systems. In the end, it really is all subjective isn't it?

I have no idea, by the way, in regard to the question. I don't really believe in rebirth I guess like I'll come back as a chicken, and I'm not going to say I believe we'll be reborn as plants as our body is destroyed after we die; I think it's a cop out. hahahah

P.S. I have 'i' in the imaginary lab. :mrgreen:

P.P.S. my typing is questionable; long day at work

[Jundo]

Re: Yep, rebirth again...

Also never fail to pierce that ... whether we come back or do not come back, whether every moment-by-moment or as Napoleon or a donkey ...

... there is simultaneously, always and most intimately, that other perspective which is True as True and beyond all argument ...

... that there never was any death from the start, nor birth either.

For those who have some problem in seeing this, some teachers will point to the sea ... where the waves seems to rise up and fall away, yet all is sea through and through, all along. Such is you and me. Is the sea "born" with each wave, does the sea vanish with each vanishing wave?

Sit Zazen and become water gettin' soaking wet!

Gassho, J