What is the meaning of Mu

[Adrian]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

Hi Adrian,

It is not that there is anything wrong with philosophizing. It is that it can truly interfere with the seeing/piercing/experiencing.

Let me give a quick example:

It is okay to read books about ocean sailing, chat with fellow sailors about the best kinds of anchor, and debate about the currents and about what the map means etc. before setting sail and while still tied up to the dock.

But now let's head out to sea ... boat, water, wind, sun ... sailing along ... AHHHHH!

BUT, some guy on the crew keeps yammering ... won't be quiet for a minute. He keeps on talking loudly about anchors and maps, how little wind there is and how hot the sun is today! He all up in his head, won't be quiet, yammer yammer yammer! He's missing the sailing. He does not know that there is a place and time to talk some about sailing ... but mostly what is to do is go out and sail! More than that, close the mouth, open the eyes ... and experience sailing.

That is kind of like it.

The only thing special about "Zen sailing", by the way, is that you, me, the boat, the sails, the currents and water, the sun and sky, the whole damn trip ... are experienced as One Great Thing Dancing All Together! ... i.e., MU!

Something like that.

So, you can talk a little tiny bit about MU! ... but kinda miss MU! when we talk about it.

Something like that.

Gassho, J

Thanks Jundo
I'm sure we're agreed that sterile and untimely philosophizing is a waste of time.
My question was "What is the meaning of Mu?" Perhaps I should have asked simply "What is Mu?". And I think bringing in long words like "T...N...C...." probably sounded a bit pretentious (but I like T...N...C...ism).
Anyway, for now I think I can live with or without the word Mu, as I've lived without it for all my life until Aitken Roshi brought it up. And he uses it lots.
The book you referred to and gave the link for looks interesting. In my own pointy-headed way I'll get to it before long. Better get through Aitken's book first, and then there's the one on Dogen's Shobogenzo ... And then there's the sitting, of course.

[Adrian]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

Somewhere I read a take on the "Mu" koan that supports Jundo's point about language, philosophizing and logic -- namely, that the "Mu" was not a response to the content of the question but to the act of the questioning. So, "Mu" translates roughly into a sort of katsu-esque "Wrong question, idiot!"

That's how I see it, too, Chris.

[Rich]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

Mu is like when you breath out and there is nothing else.

[Adrian]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

Wow... that was a deep post. My take is that something is what it is whether we have a name for it or not. Let's say some object is "blue". Now describe blue to someone who hasn't seen color before. The only way we have words, and naming and definitions is because all of our knowledge is based on a reference system. We can't really say one thing exists without saying something else exists. Everything we use to describe things inevitably comes down to a duality, or reference to something else. I can't say this is 15 centimeters without knowing what a centimeter is, and what is a centimeter? It's a unit of measurement that is based on measurements of like size. But what is it? Or what's money? It's an agreement we have that this is what this thing will be. And we accept it as "real", but what is it beyond all of that?

And more importantly who are you and who am I beyond what people call me (which is probably not appropriate for this forum :mrgreen: )? what am I when I'm not a software developer, neer do well, husband, son, etc? Who am I really? Who are you?

What we know is all based on comparison to other things, and that comparison is very, very useful and necessary in the world. At the same time we need to know when to use a tool and when that tool can be harmful, e.g. pidgeonholing people into our neat compartments of how we "know" them to be.

Gassho,

Risho

Thanks Risho.

Yes, definitions imply duality. And to go beyond duality we have to go beyond definitions and naming, as you've suggested, at least as far as I understand language and phenomena. That's why we sit, isn't it? (Please note, I'm a beginner!)

However, in addition to just sitting, if we're really going to transcend duality and not just kid ourselves or go gaga, we need guidance - teachers like Jundo and Taegu, who use language to make things clear.

Maybe definitional and propositional language is inadequate, but I don't think we can escape it. We have to work with it and let it take us as far as it can. We'll know when it can't take us any further.

Gassho
Adrian

[Risho]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

Where are you going?

[Adrian]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

Where are you going?

To "the limits of my world" and then beyond, if there is anything.

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world".
Here and elsewhere in the Tractatus Wittgenstein seems to be saying that the essence of the world and of life is: This is how things are. One is tempted to add “–deal with it.”... but he says that the propositions of the Tractatus are meaningless, not profound insights, ethical or otherwise. What are we to make of this?
http://www.iep.utm.edu/wittgens/

[Taigu]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

Mu is like when you breath out and there is nothing else

Very well put, Rich.

If you allow me...Mu is (not like) breathing out, nobody left.

Some nothing, some non body like that... :wink:


gassho


Taigu

[Ankai]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

...what dog?

[Rich]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

Mu is like when you breath out and there is nothing else

Very well put, Rich.

If you allow me...Mu is (not like) breathing out, nobody left.

Some nothing, some non body like that... :wink:


gassho


Taigu

Thanks taigu. Hope that non body is doing better.

Actually I think the original koa n was
Does a cow have buddha nature?


Moo
-)

[Myozan Kodo]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

Un-
Dis-
Non-

Where am I not going with this?

[ghop]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

Well, I live in Alabama, and every cow here is a zen master, "MOO, MOO," while chewing the grass or swating flies with their tails...just living their own moment of reality. I think of MU as a signpost on a road that has no beginning and no end. You can stop and let that sign capture your attention and you won't get very far. Or you can keep going along a road that ends where it began, and begins again. There is no such thing as buddha nature...to me, that is the point of this koan.

gassho
Greg

[Taigu]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

The great Yamada Mumon (gate of mu) in dokusan about Mu, the rinzai way.


[youtube]

[/youtube]


He used to teach round the corner in Kobe and was the abbot of Myoshinji .
Of course, it is not our dokusan style...

gassho

Taigu

[Hoyu]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

Thank you Taigu Sensei for the link. I was struck by Yamada Mumon Roshi's words:

Zen in Japan is dead and ought to be re-imported from America.

I like the idea of this cyclical pattern where the Dharma boomerangs out from Japan only to return even stronger.

Gassho,
John

[Adrian]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

Thank you, Sensei.
I am without words (stunned actually).
Gassho
Adrian

The great Yamada Mumon (gate of mu) in dokusan about Mu, the rinzai way.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2vF0dGNGmA[/video]]

He used to teach round the corner in Kobe and was the abbot of Myoshinji .
Of course, it is not our dokusan style...

gassho

Taigu

[Rev R]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

...what dog?

why are you asking about a dog's Buddha nature then?

ahhhh...it's like religious vaudeville.