What is the meaning of Mu

[Adrian]

Have been reading Robert Aitkin's The Mind of Clover, which is very good. However, he frequently talks about "Mu", as in, e.g. "... focus only on Mu, and become Mu." (p. 74)

Excellent advice I'm sure, but what's Mu?

It's in the glossary as "No; does not have". That doesn't help me at all.

[Jundo]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

Have been reading Robert Aitkin's The Mind of Clover, which is very good. However, he frequently talks about "Mu", as in, e.g. "... focus only on Mu, and become Mu." (p. 74)

Excellent advice I'm sure, but what's Mu?

It's in the glossary as "No; does not have". That doesn't help me at all.

Hi Adrian,

Here is a famous Koan. To see a bit of what's up, please understand that the standard Buddhist answer of the time would have been that, yes, a dog does have Buddha Nature (the ultimate nature of being Buddha, or perhaps, the potential to become a Buddha).

A monk asked Joshu, a Chinese Zen master: `Has a dog Buddha-nature or not?'
Joshu answered: `Mu.' (No, or "does not)

In another version of the Koan I like, Joshu one time tells one monk "yes", but then one time "mu" ... to the very same question.

Now, this can be taken in a number of ways. One is "Hey, fella, don't get caught up in philosophical non-questions like that, like 'how many angels fit on the head of a pin' The other (which really is not all so different) is that "MU" represents "Emptiness" ... and in the beautiful dance of Emptiness, such questions become non-issues. Does a dog have Buddha-nature or not? JUST DANCE!

Now, Aitken Roshi was a Koan-Zazen teacher. In that style, this "Joshu's Dog" Koan is one of the first Koan's assigned. Traditionally, folks will sit Zazen and focus intently on the phrase "MU" ... until they become MU! Sometimes at Sesshin where folks are working on MU, they will wrap themselves into MU, lose their self in MU, from morning until night ... maybe even in their dreams. MU MU MU!

We just sit Shikantaza ... which is MU realized too, the Dance of Mu!

There is a new book on the MU Koan, I have not read it. It is probably from a more Koan Zazen perspective. I will find the link. Gassho, Jundo

[Myozan Kodo]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

Does a horse have Buddha nature?
Neigh!

[Adrian]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

Hi Adrian,

Here is a famous Koan. To see a bit of what's up, please understand that the standard Buddhist answer of the time would have been that, yes, a dog does have Buddha Nature (the ultimate nature of being Buddha, or perhaps, the potential to become a Buddha).

A monk asked Joshu, a Chinese Zen master: `Has a dog Buddha-nature or not?'
Joshu answered: `Mu.' (No, or "does not)

In another version of the Koan I like, Joshu one time tells one monk "yes", but then one time "mu" ... to the very same question.

Now, this can be taken in a number of ways. One is "Hey, fella, don't get caught up in philosophical non-questions like that, like 'how many angels fit on the head of a pin' The other (which really is not all so different) is the "MU" represents "Emptiness" ... and in the beautiful dance of Emptiness, such questions become non-issues. Does a dog have Buddha-nature or not? JUST DANCE!

Now, Aitken Roshi was a Koan-Zazen teacher. In that style, this "Joshu's Dog" Koan is one of the first Koan's assigned. Traditionally, folks will sit Zazen and focus intently on the phrase "MU" ... until they become MU! Sometimes at Sesshin where folks are working on MU, they will wrap themselves into MU, lose their self in MU, from morning until night ... maybe even in their dreams. MU MU MU!

We just sit Shikantaza ... which is MU realized too, the Dance of Mu!

There is a new book on the MU Koan, I have not read it. It is probably from a more Koan Zazen perspective. I will find the link. Gassho, Jundo

So can Mu mean either "No/does not/has not" or "I hear your words but they don't carry any meaning"??

Is it something like a theological non-cognitivist's response to the question: "Do you believe in God?" He has no answer because the final term is not cognitively meaningful. Either he sets off a train of "What do you mean by ...." questions or he just smiles.

Just sitting Shikantaza sounds better.

Gassho
Adrian

[Adrian]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

Does a horse have Buddha nature?
Neigh!

:lol:

[Jundo]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

So can Mu mean either "No/does not/has not" or "I hear your words but they don't carry any meaning"??

Is it something like a theological non-cognitivist's response to the question: "Do you believe in God?" He has no answer because the final term is not cognitively meaningful. Either he sets off a train of "What do you mean by ...." questions or he just smiles.

Sounds too up in your head.

Remember, in the Zen world, we don't philosophize so much on "why is water wet?" ... we just jump in and become soaked through and through. We don't philosophize so much on "what is dancing" ... we just dance, losing our separate self-ness in the dancing. Same here.

MU is Emptiness. What is Emptiness? MU!

Just sitting Shikantaza sounds better.

Not better. Just MU!

Here is the book I mentioned. I have not read it. However, the various contributors seem very very heavily weighted to a Koan-Zazen approach (almost all the names I see), which probably entails a grappling with MU in Zazen rather of a different feel from the Shikantaza approach.

http://www.amazon.com/Book-Mu-Essential ... 0861716434

By the way, I think our next book in the Book Club, after Zen Seeds, will be a coarse in Koans from a Soto approach. I think this is included.

Gassho, J

[Seiryu]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

I use to think that Mu was the world before we start thinking about it. Like Jundo said, as children before we start thinking about what is water or why it is wet, we jump in and enjoy the moment of it.
Philosophizing about such things is a good mental exercise, but in the end the only way to truly get at the meaning of MU is to experience it directly. Just like the only way to truly know what swimming is, you have to jump in the pool. Then what you will have will not be an idea of Mu, or a belief about MU, you will have something that cannot be taken away, you will have a direct understanding of the nature of the universe.

Gassho

Seiryu

[Adrian]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

Thank you for your responses Jundo and Seiryu, but I don't know that intellectual reflection or curiosity is a denial of experience. I have a cold shower every morning and the first hit of the cold water on the skin is a pretty basic experience. To reflect on whether it would be better to turn on the water heater is not a denial of that. It is a form of intellectualizing nonetheless, though based on an experience that is not itself a cognitive one.

To say that we'll only know what Mu is by experiencing it is a bit like saying we'll only know what God's presence is like by having an experience of it. But how do we know if we've experienced it if we don't know what it is?

Being told to stop thinking and just smell the roses is something I've come across in other Buddhist forums, and maybe it's the best advice. I'm not so naive as to think I can think my way to enlightenment. However, could it be said that in Zen we must leave our brains at the door of the Zendo? If so, why are there so many books clarifying what Zen is all about? And why Koans, which, even if they're to be approached from a perspective of Mu, are then clarified in terms of a systematic Zen philosophy?

I have just had a book added to my Kindle called Realizing Genjokoan. On the very first page, the author says: "An old Zen slogan denigrates dependence on words and letters, instead emphasizing direct pointing to mind and awareness. So it is ironic that Zen has produced extensive libraries of writings, often composed of commentaries on previous writings like this one." Well, it may be ironic, but it's perfectly natural. Once you start experiencing things, especially the movements of the "mind", then you're going to start doing things "up in your head".

Metta thoughts to you
Adrian

[Risho]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

Wow... that was a deep post. My take is that something is what it is whether we have a name for it or not. Let's say some object is "blue". Now describe blue to someone who hasn't seen color before. The only way we have words, and naming and definitions is because all of our knowledge is based on a reference system. We can't really say one thing exists without saying something else exists. Everything we use to describe things inevitably comes down to a duality, or reference to something else. I can't say this is 15 centimeters without knowing what a centimeter is, and what is a centimeter? It's a unit of measurement that is based on measurements of like size. But what is it? Or what's money? It's an agreement we have that this is what this thing will be. And we accept it as "real", but what is it beyond all of that?

And more importantly who are you and who am I beyond what people call me (which is probably not appropriate for this forum :mrgreen: )? what am I when I'm not a software developer, neer do well, husband, son, etc? Who am I really? Who are you?

What we know is all based on comparison to other things, and that comparison is very, very useful and necessary in the world. At the same time we need to know when to use a tool and when that tool can be harmful, e.g. pidgeonholing people into our neat compartments of how we "know" them to be.

Gassho,

Risho

[Jundo]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

Thank you for your responses Jundo and Seiryu, but I don't know that intellectual reflection or curiosity is a denial of experience. I have a cold shower every morning and the first hit of the cold water on the skin is a pretty basic experience. To reflect on whether it would be better to turn on the water heater is not a denial of that. It is a form of intellectualizing nonetheless, though based on an experience that is not itself a cognitive one.

To say that we'll only know what Mu is by experiencing it is a bit like saying we'll only know what God's presence is like by having an experience of it. But how do we know if we've experienced it if we don't know what it is?

Hi Adrian,

It is not that there is anything wrong with philosophizing. It is that it can truly interfere with the seeing/piercing/experiencing.

Let me give a quick example:

It is okay to read books about ocean sailing, chat with fellow sailors about the best kinds of anchor, and debate about the currents and about what the map means etc. before setting sail and while still tied up to the dock.

But now let's head out to sea ... boat, water, wind, sun ... sailing along ... AHHHHH!

BUT, some guy on the crew keeps yammering ... won't be quiet for a minute. He keeps on talking loudly about anchors and maps, how little wind there is and how hot the sun is today! He all up in his head, won't be quiet, yammer yammer yammer! He's missing the sailing. He does not know that there is a place and time to talk some about sailing ... but mostly what is to do is go out and sail! More than that, close the mouth, open the eyes ... and experience sailing.

That is kind of like it.

The only thing special about "Zen sailing", by the way, is that you, me, the boat, the sails, the currents and water, the sun and sky, the whole damn trip ... are experienced as One Great Thing Dancing All Together! ... i.e., MU!

Something like that.

So, you can talk a little tiny bit about MU! ... but kinda miss MU! when we talk about it.

Something like that.

Gassho, J

[Rimon]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

I'm curious about the *literal* meaning of "mu" in Chinese. I read once in a book - I can't remenber the title anymore- that "mu" was more like a negative particle than a negation adverb. According to that position, "mu" should be better translated like "in-", when we say "in-visible" ---> "not visible". However, most fellows argue that "mu" and "no" are equivalent.
So according to that interpretation, Joshu makes an abuse of grammar to state a point about not being attached to language:

Monk: Does a dog has Buddha nature?
Joshu: in-

Which I'm sure would let the monk more puzzled than just a plain "no".

Does anyone know for sure? Is Mu more like "in-" or like "no"?

Mu=No?
Mu=In?
Mu=Mu?
Mu is not Mu?

Sorry for becoming philosophical, but sometimes, that's my way of dancing

Gassho

Rimon

[ChrisA]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

Somewhere I read a take on the "Mu" koan that supports Jundo's point about language, philosophizing and logic -- namely, that the "Mu" was not a response to the content of the question but to the act of the questioning. So, "Mu" translates roughly into a sort of katsu-esque "Wrong question, idiot!"

[Hoyu]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

This is a tough one!
My understanding(if logical understanding of this is even possible) on Mu is that it is a response to a question which sort of un-asks it. Thus leaveing the question in the void in an attempt for the questioner, rather, to reflect upon themselves.

Gassho,
John

[Rev R]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

Ask the dog.

[Onken]

Re: What is the meaning of Mu

I heard of a question being asked to a student, "What is MU"? The student slapped the Roshi in the face......Enlightment attained!!!

Gassho,

Matt