Sitting with VERY deep fear

[Eika]

Re: Sitting with VERY deep fear

But, really, this stuff ain't bullshit; it's THE shit.

I couldn't agree more . . .

Gassho,
Eika

[Kyonin]

Re: Sitting with VERY deep fear

Mari,

By sitting we all mean that just sit, meditate and drop resistance. I know this sounds too crazy, but believe me, if you meditate daily, with discipline and joy, there will come the day that when a panic attack hits, you will be able to handle perfectly.

When in fear, just be in fear. When in panic, just be in panic. But attaching labels and judgments to those attacks will result in unbearable anxiety.

So by sitting it means just that: meditate. Daily. When you less notices, you'll surf not only on panic but in every adverse feeling you have.

Granted, you (and all of us) will be subject to panic and fear, since we are humans, but there is a great difference on creating stories and attach them to the feeling, and just melt with things. When that happens, you'll be able to find solutions with a clear mind.

Hope this helps

[ghop]

Re: Sitting with VERY deep fear

Out of nowhere, I have begun having extreme anxiety attacks.

This really sucks because I knew someone who used to have them and I always made light of them saying, "Just relax."

Well, that is not possible during a panic attack. Now I've expereinced anxiety. And some real fears too. But an anxiety attack feels like dying. Maybe because of all the change in my life lately (sick parents etc) but in July I found myself in the emergency room thinking I was having a heart attack. I have never had high blood pressure in my life. And like the Grateful Dead song my pulse stayed 72 come shine or rain. Well, that day my blood pressure sky rocketed, my pulse went crazy, my chest was hurting, my legs were shaking, I felt faint, short of breath, and was surely on the brink of death. Two days later I left the hospital with a good report. No heart problems, no clogged arteries, etc. That has happened three times since. Just yesterday I was walking in the park, something I try to do everyday. It was beautiful weather. I was happy and relaxed. Then out of nowhere an attack hit. It is crippling. For me at least, it is impossilbe to rationalize with my thoughts during an attack. Watching my breath is impossible. It only increases the panic. The only thing I can do during such an episode is suffer.

I don't know if sitting will help with this or not. I refuse to take medication. I've always been a calm, fun, rational minded guy. Now this. How embarassing.

No point to the post really, other than to share. Thanks for listening.

gassho
Greg

[Hoyu]

Re: Sitting with VERY deep fear

Hi Greg,

Sorry to hear about these attacks

Greg wrote:
This really sucks because I knew someone who used to have them and I always made light of them saying, "Just relax."

I think you may know just the right person to consult to help give you some insights to get through it. A small apology might be a good thing too
Hope you get well soon!

Gassho,
John

[Jundo]

Re: Sitting with VERY deep fear

Hi Greg,

We have some folks in the Sangha who have been through this, and I am sure they will have some insights.

I just want to say that, if it is persisting, talk to a professional in these matters and follow their advise. Read up on it, and if there is an effective treatment be open to it. Yes, my feeling is that Zazen should be very helpful with anxiety but, in this kind of serious case, it must go hand in hand with all other available effective treatments. I usually say ...

Zazen is -NOT- a cure for many things ... it will not fix a bad tooth (just allow you to be present with the toothache ... you had better see a dentist, not a Zen teacher)... Zen practice will not cure your acne on your face, or fix your flat tire. All it will do is let one "be at one, and whole" ... TRULY ONE ... with one's pimples and punctured wheel, accepting and embracing of each, WHOLLY WHOLE with/as each one. There are many psychological problems or psycho/medical problems such as anxiety and panic attacks that may require other therapies, although Zen can be part of a treatment program. My feeling is that some things ... are probably best handled by medical/pychological treatment, not Zen teachers.

We will dedicate our Saturday Zazenkai tomorrow to your and others fast recoveries.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jundo]

Re: Sitting with VERY deep fear

Here are some other threads we have had on panic and anxiety ...

viewtopic.php?p=56387#p56387

viewtopic.php?p=31554#p31554

Gassho, J

[Kaishin]

Re: Sitting with VERY deep fear

Greg,

I will PM you shortly.

[andyZ]

Re: Sitting with VERY deep fear

Out of nowhere, I have begun having extreme anxiety attacks.

This really sucks because I knew someone who used to have them and I always made light of them saying, "Just relax."

Well, that is not possible during a panic attack. Now I've expereinced anxiety. And some real fears too. But an anxiety attack feels like dying. Maybe because of all the change in my life lately (sick parents etc) but in July I found myself in the emergency room thinking I was having a heart attack. I have never had high blood pressure in my life. And like the Grateful Dead song my pulse stayed 72 come shine or rain. Well, that day my blood pressure sky rocketed, my pulse went crazy, my chest was hurting, my legs were shaking, I felt faint, short of breath, and was surely on the brink of death. Two days later I left the hospital with a good report. No heart problems, no clogged arteries, etc. That has happened three times since. Just yesterday I was walking in the park, something I try to do everyday. It was beautiful weather. I was happy and relaxed. Then out of nowhere an attack hit. It is crippling. For me at least, it is impossilbe to rationalize with my thoughts during an attack. Watching my breath is impossible. It only increases the panic. The only thing I can do during such an episode is suffer.

I don't know if sitting will help with this or not. I refuse to take medication. I've always been a calm, fun, rational minded guy. Now this. How embarassing.

No point to the post really, other than to share. Thanks for listening.

gassho
Greg

Hi Greg,

I'm very sorry to hear about your anxiety problems. I was in your shoes 6 years ago. But what set it off were some health issues that I had been neglecting for a long time. I was familiar with Zen meditation at that time but wasn't practicing regularly so it was ineffective. Whenever I tried to sit the anxiety would just increase. I also decided to try to stay off drugs.

For about 5 months I'd been struggling with it, going into therapy, and reading some help books on anxiety. I think all those things had some effect, but it didn't last very long. What finally did it for me is a simple book: "Hope and Help for Your Nerves" by Claire Weekes http://www.amazon.com/Hope-Help-Your-Ne ... 0451167228. The book is written in the 60s and in such a simple way and language that it just clicked with me right away. I don't think I even finished the book, it was so helpful. If you read the comments on Amazon it seems that the book was very helpful to many others.

I must tell you that at that time when I started reading this book I also started to take care of my underlying health issues, so I'm not sure what helped me first and it was probably a combination of the two. In your case you say that some traumatic events are occurring in your personal life, so may be you need to work on those as well. I don't think that being embarrassed is the right attitude. We don't really know how our bodies work so there's nothing to be embarrassed about. You're not alone with this problem.

If you have any other questions you can PM me.

[Nindo]

Re: Sitting with VERY deep fear

Thank you Andy for the book title. There's somebody in my life who this may help.

I knew someone who used to have them and I always made light of them saying, "Just relax."

Greg, I guess I'm guilty of that, too. Thanks for your description, helping me to understand better what's going on during an attack.

[Dosho]

Re: Sitting with VERY deep fear

Greg,

It is very good to hear from you.

I have nothing different to offer than what others have said and feel my mind was very well spoken by what Jundo advised, but did want to wish you the best during this time.

We're always here...that's what is pretty cool about this place.

Please take care of yourself and let us know how you are doing.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Shohei]

Re: Sitting with VERY deep fear

Hey Greg,
I still do get them time to time, best thing for them is to look right at em. I found a few things help with frequency and severity, may work for you may not. 1) cut the caffeine waaaay back.

2)from past experience, do not self medicate...only works for a bit and just buries the issues to come back more festering and painful.

3)exercise...I know right... WTF...walk while having a heart attack?!?!" was my reaction but truth is it helps.. best to do so as preventative medicine, light exercise.
The light exercise will burn off the excess energy that often helps start a panic attack, and hell if you are worried about your heart...well, check it with the doctor, once cleared... its good for your ticker and your mind.
Don't go lifting weights or stuff right off ...Too heavy tends to cause an attack for me. I get all short of breath a bit and heart pounding and Voila! the adrenaline kicks in and its panic attact time :/

4) look at the root causes. you know them and until you deal with them (in my case it was dealing with death, loss of family and really my own mortality in this light!)
and talk about it with some one if you can.

5) take the meds if prescribed and as directed of course.

6) try to check list your self in the midst of an attack... I found after I was able to just sit/lay with it...and sometimes talk myself back out of it through just nodding to my attack as it came on. sounds weird but it worked for me.

My mom had them for bit after my brother died and she decided to walk with them. when one would come she would up and go out the door for a vigorous walk... to quote her:

"Fuck it, If im going to die from this, might as well take in the scenery"

Its not easy and if you need an ear you have one here.

Gassho
Shohei

[ghop]

Re: Sitting with VERY deep fear

Thank you all for your responses and advice. It really helps. Really.

"Fuck it, If im going to die from this, might as well take in the scenery"

Shohei, if you will pardon me for saying it this way, I wish I had your Mother's balls.

Thanks all.

Gassho,
Greg

[Geika]

Re: Sitting with VERY deep fear

What has been working for me is telling myself every time, "I have never passed out from this... I have never thrown up from this... It always goes away... It is just fear... I'm not sick... I'm not dying... etc." Results may vary. I hate panic attacks and I hope yours end. I also try to deeply analyze the feelings and where they are coming from, physically and mentally. Last option is to distract myself with something, telling myself that if I can concentrate on something, I'm obviously okay.

[Nenka]

Re: Sitting with VERY deep fear

Hey Greg,

I was wondering where you've been. Sorry to hear about all this stuff going on. Metta to you (and your parents).

Take care,

Jen

[elle]

resurrecting a very old thread. I came across this on accident, looking for the old book study on Charlotte Joko Beck, and I found this discussion immensely useful.
And! I was quite pleased to recognize a few names and faces that are still here.

Gassho,
Elle

sat today