Terminology question: setsuna-shoji

[Ryumon]

This may be nitpicking, but I have a question regarding this term. In Realizing Genjokoan, on p. 111, Shohaku Okumura defines this as "the process of body and mind arising (being born) and perishing (dying) over and over again, moment by moment."

I'm just wondering if this arising and perishing is meant to be a solid, continuous process, or one more like a film running at a million frames a second, where each moment is a fixed moment that, through its motion, gives the illusion of movement.

[Jundo]

Re: Terminology question: setsuna-shoji

This may be nitpicking, but I have a question regarding this term. In Realizing Genjokoan, on p. 111, Shohaku Okumura defines this as "the process of body and mind arising (being born) and perishing (dying) over and over again, moment by moment."

I'm just wondering if this arising and perishing is meant to be a solid, continuous process, or one more like a film running at a million frames a second, where each moment is a fixed moment that, through its motion, gives the illusion of movement.

Well, for those wondering, a "setsuna" (ksana in sanskrit) is a tiny tiny unit of time, the smallest unit of time, so small that one cannot even cut it in two ... and "shoji" means "birth/life and death". So, this is something like "we are born and die moment by moment".

Yes, I would think this question is not the point (like "does ice cream = creamy ice or icy cream?" ... Instead, just taste the ice cream!):

I'm just wondering if this arising and perishing is meant to be a solid, continuous process, or one more like a film running at a million frames a second, where each moment is a fixed moment that, through its motion, gives the illusion of movement

Does the river flow in discreet units drop by drop, or does it go in a continuous process?

JUST FORGET ABOUT IT, DIVE IN AND GET SOAKING WET! FLOW WITH THE CHANGE! :shock:

Gassho, J

[ChrisA]

Re: Terminology question: setsuna-shoji

kirkmc, this is just the sort of question I've been asking around these and other parts, asking a bit too much, in fact. With more study and zazen under my belt, I'm starting to understand the responses of teachers like Jundo with a bit less confusion. I try to remind myself of my overthinking by recalling Thich Nhat Hanh's sweet admonition that "we don't really need to think a whole lot" -- though if I need a good ear-boxing, I remind myself of Dainin Katagiri's declaration, "Whatever you think is delusion" and grimace. :shock:

So, if you think we might both harbor a jones/striving for overthought thoughts, and if you're willing to share, I'd be interested to know why you asked the question. What were you seeking in asking it?

Thanks, either way!

[Ryumon]

Re: Terminology question: setsuna-shoji

The question was really a terminology question; I'm a word guy. In Realizing Genjokoan, Shohaku Okumura spent time defining this term and a couple of others that relate to time, to explain his choices in his translation. I really wasn't asking a question about time itself. Though Jundo's answer was certainly welcome. :-)

[ChrisA]

Re: Terminology question: setsuna-shoji

Gotcha -- thanks!

[Rich]

Re: Terminology question: setsuna-shoji

I try to remind myself of my overthinking by recalling Thich Nhat Hanh's sweet admonition that "we don't really need to think a whole lot" -- though if I need a good ear-boxing, I remind myself of Dainin Katagiri's declaration, "Whatever you think is delusion" and grimace. :shock:

Thanks, either way!

Well I do think a whole lot but putting it down has become easier. Because thinking is a representation of something, Katagiri's 'Whatever you think is delusion' makes sense. the only way to truly realize Genjokoan is to just do it - we practice this with the action of just sitting and just doing whatever we do. So "the process of body and mind arising (being born) and perishing (dying) over and over again, moment by moment." is not a problem or even a question but just the universe doing what it does. I don't know, something like that - I'm not a word guy.

[Taigu]

Re: Terminology question: setsuna-shoji

You are a word-guy...Nice to meet you.

What we are interested in is what is beyond words.
Or words that manifest the beyond.
Words for words are mere shadows.

I strongly feel and see that Jundo answered the real question, the question behind the question, and this is about time.

Anyway, welcome,as we haven't met so far,

gassho

Taigu

[ChrisA]

Re: Terminology question: setsuna-shoji

Methinks we need a word guy club!

[Ryumon]

Re: Terminology question: setsuna-shoji

Anyway, welcome,as we haven't met so far,

You've seen me around. I just changed my avatar, so I look new. :-)

[Taigu]

Re: Terminology question: setsuna-shoji

Indeed. You see how much i now care about words...
:roll:


gassho


Taigu

[Shokai]

Re: Terminology question: setsuna-shoji

Who was it that said you can never put your foot in the same river twice :mrgreen:

[Hoyu]

Re: Terminology question: setsuna-shoji

you can never put your foot in the same river twice

Perhaps not, but you can put it in your mouth infinite times ops:
Such is the double edge nature of those words we cling so tightly to!

Gassho,
John

[Risho]

Re: Terminology question: setsuna-shoji

It was either Dick Van Patten or Heraclitus who said it. haahhaha

[Risho]

Re: Terminology question: setsuna-shoji

So how do we know that the river is unchanged? What are we comparing this thing to, to see the change? Something must be unchanging for there to be change right?

[Ryumon]

Re: Terminology question: setsuna-shoji

Interestingly, I found the following in a book I'm reading, Principles of Digital Audio:

"...physicists have suggested that time might come in discrete intervals. Specifically, the indivisible period of time might be 10 -43 second, known as Planck time. One theory is that no time interval can be shorter than this because the energy required to make the division would be so great that a black hole would be created and the event swallowed up inside it."