your truth about The Four Noble Truths

[ghop]

Re: your truth about The Four Noble Truths

of all the things the Buddha could have taught first, why do you think he started here?

I think maybe because the culture to which he was speaking was extremely idealistic (much like our own today). Consider how sheltered he was as a youth. Totally unrealistic. Then he goes out into the "spiritual world" seeking answers and all the practices he underwent were fruitless and again totally idealistic. His was a type of New Age universe much like our own today. Just walk through the spiritual section of a bookstore. So much waste of paper. Until we see how our own unrealistic and idealistic views distort our perception of reality there can be no peace. We remain a hinderance to others.

gassho
Greg

p.s. or maybe he flipped a coin and the Four Noble Truths won :shock:

[Risho]

Re: your truth about The Four Noble Truths

of all the things the Buddha could have taught first, why do you think he started here?

I think maybe because the culture to which he was speaking was extremely idealistic (much like our own today). Consider how sheltered he was as a youth. Totally unrealistic. Then he goes out into the "spiritual world" seeking answers and all the practices he underwent were fruitless and again totally idealistic. His was a type of New Age universe much like our own today. Just walk through the spiritual section of a bookstore. So much waste of paper. Until we see how our own unrealistic and idealistic views distort our perception of reality there can be no peace. We remain a hinderance to others.

gassho
Greg

p.s. or maybe he flipped a coin and the Four Noble Truths won :shock:

Words are so interesting because they don't fully convey what we're saying. We sort of have to fill in the blanks. I know what you are saying with the ideals, or at least I think I do... but I guess I still add to it because of my own ideas. Getting to that point of reality, of not adding on is the trick I don't know where this came from, it's just sort of an observation after reading this. I know what you are saying but, then again, it always leads to more questions, more clarification. Of course, I have to do the practice for myself. Good thing we have a sangha to help support us and to whom we can support.

Gassho,

Risho

Edit: I don't know if "to whom" was used properly, but you know sometimes you just have to drop a "whom" in a sentence. lol

[will]

Re: your truth about The Four Noble Truths

or maybe he flipped a coin and the Four Noble Truths won :shock:

lol

_/_

[disastermouse]

Re: your truth about The Four Noble Truths

No warning sign!!!Just a question os sensitivity. To boil down the notion of Nirvana to well being is a bit far off for me. It is like the Dailai lama saying that the purpose of life is happiness. I don't quite agree. To tell you the truth, I don't know what is the purpose of life, it has a real vast quality that self centered notions like well-being and happiness don't seem to convey.

gassho


Taigu

I think I sympathize with what you say here. Trying to find 'happiness' in a conditioned world prone to age, sickness, and death is a bit like trying to sleep in a burning house. 'Nirvana' is more than mere 'happiness', IMHO.

It seems that some people think you can conquer the world by becoming powerful enough to manipulate the conditions in a way that brings pleasure - however this makes enemies of whomever has purposes opposed to yours and even if you achieve the perfect manipulation of conditions, it won't - can't - last long.

Others seeing this seem to think that the best response is to retreat from the world altogether, but this just isn't possible, and even if it was - it would result in a world drained of color.

You can act in the world without turning preferences into 'needs'. I think this sounds wishy-washy, but the people I've seen who realize this path are anything but.

If only it could easily be put down in black and white - the 'solution' printed up on a postcard and pinned to our computer...but I don't really think that would work even if it was possible. You don't 'gain' enlightenment, you 'act' enlightenment. Once again, IMHO.

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: your truth about The Four Noble Truths

of all the things the Buddha could have taught first, why do you think he started here?

I think maybe because the culture to which he was speaking was extremely idealistic (much like our own today). Consider how sheltered he was as a youth. Totally unrealistic. Then he goes out into the "spiritual world" seeking answers and all the practices he underwent were fruitless and again totally idealistic. His was a type of New Age universe much like our own today. Just walk through the spiritual section of a bookstore. So much waste of paper. Until we see how our own unrealistic and idealistic views distort our perception of reality there can be no peace. We remain a hinderance to others.

gassho
Greg

p.s. or maybe he flipped a coin and the Four Noble Truths won :shock:

He started with the 4NT because if you can't face the fact of the first truth, you aren't ready for the Dharma.

Accepting the first truth, if you can't accept the second as the cause of suffering, you aren't ready for the Dharma.

Accepting the first and second truths, if you do not have faith that there is indeed a path out of suffering, you are a nihilist and not ready for the Dharma.

Accepting the first three truths, if you are not ready to act on them by way of the Eightfold Path, then you are not ready for the Dharma.

As a Zen teacher once said (or maybe it was the Tao Te Ching), the wise man is the man that is sick of sickness.

Following the Dharma, I think, means truly being 'human'. In Buddhist Psychology there are the six states that describe the Samsaric cycle. Hell, Preta, Animal, Human, Jealous Gods, and Gods. In the first two, you are hopelessly chained to delusion - be it hatred, anger, fear, desperation, neediness, or craving. In the third, your chain is mere stupidity. As a Jealous God, you are too successful at manipulating conditions to ever be expected to give up that game - you are chained by ambition, greed, craving, heedlessness, and a lack of compassion for those weaker than you. You are like a gambler who rarely loses - could you imagine convincing someone like this to give up the game? As a 'God', all IS you - the clinging is so great as to be indistinguishable from self.

It's the human realm (psychologically speaking) to which the 4NTs have a chance to take root - as you are not so successful at manipulating your conditions that you can fool yourself into thinking that the perfect manipulation of conditions is possible. Human life does not allow the conditioned world to be manipulated into a stable happiness for long enough that one can fool oneself into thinking this is an answer to suffering. At the same time, one is not so consumed with anger, fear, hatred, or sheer abject want, that a way out does not seem possible.

Chet

[Jinyu]

Re: your truth about The Four Noble Truths

These are just my simple thoughts on the Four Noble truths and our practice... maybe too mindy or too much concepts in it... nothing new really, only old stuff “re-chewed”

Universality!
All sentient beings have the same experiences of "suffering", unceasing change and unsatisfaction.
But the causes (ignorance, hatred and avidity) are also universal... their are well known but still cultivated by everyone.
Sometimes "with good reasons", sometimes because we think it is better to go that way... but finally we just create more suffering and ignorance.

But there is a universal path leading to the end of suffering... A vast and beautiful path valid for all sentient beings who cares enough to practice it wholeheartedly (with no mind or idea of gaining an end to suffering ).

This path of the patriarchs from Gautama to Bodhidharma, Huineng and Dogen, ... is simple and clear from the very beginning. Huineng's platform sutra (Duanhang version), like Dogen in other words, says:" When a phenomenon arises in the "field of the senses/mind",...just see it with the light of Prajna (conscious attention) and do not try to follow or get/grasp it. That way you will see your "True Nature", the Essence of your Mind/Heart who is Buddha."

Thus one moment of Zazen is, as Dogen emphasized so much, a moment of enlightenment. One moment seeing our Mind/Heart (or Body/Mind) without developing attachments that leads to more suffering (or in other words, attachments are the roots of suffering) is One moment of perfect and unspeakable enlightenment.

As I see it this pathless path, spread and explained by numberless Buddhas are all contained in the 4th Noble truths... the 8fold path. That we can resume in our tradition (correct me if I'm wrong) as Zazen, Kesa, Precepts... Each one is unique, yet not different from the other.

The precepts are the very beginning and also “a result of Zazen”. Zazen itself includes stopping creating or following attachment. But on the other hand, we need to practice this “not following the seeds of suffering” with the perfect sense that Zazen doesn't serve for anything by itself... it won't pay your bills or make you an immortal.
Same thing for the precepts, same thing when studying the Kesa, doing Kinhin, eating soup or reading these silly lines…we just do the thing.
Abandoning slowly ideas of an Ego or a non-Ego, even a Dharma or a non-Dharma (not just the word but the wide reality beyond it). Just seeing what is without ideas of good, bad, square or round, born or unborn, space and time, sacred and profane and finally even abandoning the idea of something to be abandon ... of a Buddha or a non-Buddha.... And staying in the simple truth of being, of just sitting…Noble or not…

Anyway, I hope I'm not too much out of the subject!
Have a nice day everyone!
Gassho,
Jinyu

[ghop]

Re: your truth about The Four Noble Truths

This path of the patriarchs from Gautama to Bodhidharma, Huineng and Dogen, ... is simple and clear from the very beginning. Huineng's platform sutra (Duanhang version), like Dogen in other words, says:" When a phenomenon arises in the "field of the senses/mind",...just see it with the light of Prajna (conscious attention) and do not try to follow or get/grasp it. That way you will see your "True Nature", the Essence of your Mind/Heart who is Buddha."

Thus one moment of Zazen is, as Dogen emphasized so much, a moment of enlightenment. One moment seeing our Mind/Heart (or Body/Mind) without developing attachments that leads to more suffering (or in other words, attachments are the roots of suffering) is One moment of perfect and unspeakable enlightenment.

As I see it this pathless path, spread and explained by numberless Buddhas are all contained in the 4th Noble truths... the 8fold path. That we can resume in our tradition (correct me if I'm wrong) as Zazen, Kesa, Precepts... Each one is unique, yet not different from the other.

The precepts are the very beginning and also “a result of Zazen”. Zazen itself includes stopping creating or following attachment. But on the other hand, we need to practice this “not following the seeds of suffering” with the perfect sense that Zazen doesn't serve for anything by itself... it won't pay your bills or make you an immortal.
Same thing for the precepts, same thing when studying the Kesa, doing Kinhin, eating soup or reading these silly lines…we just do the thing.
Abandoning slowly ideas of an Ego or a non-Ego, even a Dharma or a non-Dharma (not just the word but the wide reality beyond it). Just seeing what is without ideas of good, bad, square or round, born or unborn, space and time, sacred and profane and finally even abandoning the idea of something to be abandon ... of a Buddha or a non-Buddha.... And staying in the simple truth of being, of just sitting…Noble or not…

deep, deep bows my friend and buddha to be

gassho
Greg

[Kaishin]

Re: your truth about The Four Noble Truths

Many great comments!

The translation of the word "dukkha" bothered me when I first began practicing, and I had a hard time explaining to others without them thinking that Buddhism is nihilistic or focused on negativity.

Now, I tend to take the visual translation of the word "dukka," which has its origins in the notion of a wheel off kilter. When I think of "dukkha," an image of a wheel spinning crookedly pops up in my mind. So, it could be

1. Wheels spin off kilter
2. There is a reason for that
3. There is a way to get it to spin evenly again
4. Here's how!

Silly maybe, but sometimes visual analogies work well.

Gassho,
Matt

[Taigu]

Re: your truth about The Four Noble Truths

I love your version Matt, very clean.

gassho


Taigu

[Jinyu]

Re: your truth about The Four Noble Truths

I'm looking for the LIKE button

Same here!
Very visual... and to the point! probably the best image I'll keep in mind!
thank you Matt! :wink:

gassho,
Jinyu

[Shokai]

Re: your truth about The Four Noble Truths

Matt;

thank you for turning the wheel one more time

Mo ichido kudasai

[Ekai]

Re: your truth about The Four Noble Truths

I see in this thread many different variations of what others describe as the 4 Noble Truths. I think, not one variation is better than the other as long we understand ourselves what the 4 Noble Truths are. If one has their own way of describing the Truths but essentially means the same thing as the original teaching in order to help them better understand the Truths and to live in the Dharma, I think that is great. However, living in the Dharma and walking the path is where the real understanding of the teachings come in.

I prefer to keep these teachings as simple as I can, like Matt. Maybe this is too simple but I try not over complicate things as a busy working mom.

The reality is that there is suffering. Clinging leads to suffering. Letting of clinging leads to the release of suffering. There is a path to be free from suffering. Clinging is like a domino effect that leads to aversion, greed, ignorance, selfishness and anger. But letting go of clinging leads to mindfulness, clarity, peace, compassion, lovingkindess and wisdom. I heard a Thervada teacher once say "Nothing is worth is clinging to". Sometimes I will say this to myself when I feel an attachment and it helps to let it go.

But this is so much easier said than done. :roll:

Jodi

[Jundo]

Re: your truth about The Four Noble Truths

Hi,

I like to say that this practice returns us to a certain encompassing Peace & Joy even about a life/world/self that may be sometimes felt as joyous and peaceful, but sometimes not ... a 'Joy' even at not always feeling joyous! :shock: It is somehow being At One Piece & One Peace with the whole wild "roller coaster" ride that can be life ... up down up down up ... sunny day, rainy day, sunny day, rainy day ... Let It Ride! We Are The Ride! Just the Ride!

It is not necessarily about our attaining some ability to feel "la la la happy happy happy" each and every moment of life. Rather, it is a foundational Happiness that sweeps in sometimes being happy, sometimes sad ... and ITS ALL OKAY! It is a "Contentment" free of the need even to be "content" with every problem in life. It is a Peace of One Piece in a world that is sometimes felt to be peaceful, sometimes not at all, sometime broken all to pieces!

There is a difference between a human being who is sometimes sad but wants to be always always happy ... and a human being who is sometimes sad but is very much at peace and wholly whole with being sometimes happy, sometimes sad, always human! (Same with sometimes feeling naturally afraid, tired, confused, a touch angry ... all normal human emotions, each no problem so long as we are not their prisoner).

After nearly 30 years of Zen Practice ... tonight I am feeling a little blue and afraid! :cry: Health discomforts and a basic fear of doctors and knives, economic worries due to the earthquake, lack of sleep, five melting nuclear reactors a hundred miles from here, radioactive vegetables growing in my garden, my kids school being swept with Geiger Counters, three months of each of the foregoing, a car with a dead battery, growing cracks in our house walls and a still fallen roof, a close relative slowly dying before her time ... and our cat got bit by a snake (though the cat seems largely okay). YUCK!

And after 30 years of Zen Practice ... Zen Practice will "FIX" little if any of it. It will not repair either the nuke reactors or my gall stones, bring business in the door, mend the house walls, my loved ones, the cat. Thus, I feel a bit tired, sad and afraid today.

Yet, after 30 years of Zen Practice ... it is all ... somehow ... OKAY BEYOND OKAY too! (I always speak on how we come to experience life in several seemingly contradictory levels ... At Once, As One). Thus, a lot of stuff that is "not so okay" is also All A-OKAY! :shock: There may be a feeling of some things being 'Yuck' ... but there is not 'Dukkha'

There is simultaneously (1) some natural friction and discontent between how my little 'self' demands/wishes this life-world would better be ... and (2) all friction and discontent fully dropped away, AT ONCE, cast off into Emptiness! Thus, self is dropped away, the barriers and separation of this self/life/world dropped away (even as that small self bumps heads with the world of its discontents a bit)! One so permeates and perfumes the other that, well, Yuck is no longer just Yuck! It is even somehow beautiful! :wink:

My view of Dukkha and the Four Noble Truths is here (written, by coincidence, during a previous hospital stay):

So, what are the 'Four Noble Truths' (the Buddha's earliest teaching)?
.
Life is Dukkha; there is a cause for Dukkha; there is a way to the cessation of Dukkha; that way is the Noble Eightfold Path.

So, what’s “Dukkha”? …and what does Dukkha do?

No one English word captures the full depth and range of the Pali term, Dukkha. It is sometimes rendered as “suffering,” as in “life is suffering.” But perhaps it’s better expressed as “dissatisfaction,” “anxiety,” “disappointment,” “unease at perfection,” or “frustration” — terms that wonderfully convey a subtlety of meaning.

In a nutshell, your “self” wishes this world to be X, yet this world is not X. The mental state that may result to the “self” from this disparity is Dukkha.
.
Shakyamuni Buddha gave many examples: sickness (when we do not wish to be sick), old age (when we long for youth), death (if we cling to life), loss of a loved one (as we cannot let go), violated expectations, the failure of happy moments to last (though we wish them to last). Even joyous moments — such as happiness and good news, treasure or pleasant times — can be a source of suffering if we cling to them, if we are attached to those things.

In ancient stories, Dukkha is often compared to a chariot’s or potter’s wheel that will not turn smoothly as it revolves. The opposite, Sukkha, is a wheel that spins smoothly and noiselessly, without resistance as it goes.

Fortunately, Shakyamuni Buddha also provided the Dukkha cure.

...

These Basic Buddhist Teachings are for right in the heart of life, today in a hospital room with my wife, the night before surgery. Times like these are the true proving ground.

This Practice has no purpose or value… and it is at moments like this one that its value and purpose are crystal clear.

In life, there’s sickness, old age, death and loss… other very hard times… But that’s not why ‘Life is Suffering‘. Not at all, said the Buddha.
.
Instead …

... it’s sickness, but only when we refuse the condition …
…old age, if we long for youth …
… death, because we cling to life …
… loss, when we cannot let go …
... violated expectations, because we wished otherwise …

Our “dissatisfaction,” “disappointment,”‘ “unease” and “frustration” — Dukkha — arises as a state of mind, as our demands and wishes for how things “should be” or “if only would be for life to be content” differ from”the way things are.” Your “self” wishes this world to be X, yet this world is not X. That wide gap of “self” and “not self” is the source of Dukkha.
.
Our Practice closes the gap; not the least separation.

What’s more, even happiness can be a source of Dukkha if we cling to the happy state, demand that it stay, are attached to good news, material successes, pleasures and the like.. refusing the way life may otherwise go. That is also the “self” placing judgments and demands on life.

Fortunately, the Buddha provided the medicine for this disease of dis-ease: The Eightfold Path (which we will talk about in our next ‘Buddha-Basics’).

Oh, no amount of Practice can make times like these — sitting in a hospital room, in pain and awaiting the surgeon’s knife — fun. It is natural to worry too. Yet all is revealed as somehow okay: okay beyond okay, allowing all, yielding, flowing with the flowing, beyond worry (even in the heart of worry), resistance gone… letting it be.

The gap is closed. There is peace.


viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2942

and

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2941

Gassho, J

PS -

As for the meaning in life; I don't know is a good answer. Although I do feel that there is no meaning. Not in no point why bother type of way, but I do not think life is a means to anything. Life is life. Complete and perfect it is not lacking nor is it to be lived for any other reasons beside living life for life sake.

Even though we learn to taste life with no need to attain or obtain, no goals ... do not think we need be without goals, purposes. We can live life for life's sake ... plus accomplish so much, building buildings, raising children, writing songs ... goals and no goals, At Once As One.

[Kaishin]

Re: your truth about The Four Noble Truths

Gassho, Jundo. And much metta to you and your family during this rough time.

[ghop]

Re: your truth about The Four Noble Truths

Jundo,

I can't thank you enough for this post. I'm gonna print it out and keep it with me for deep study. You embody the balance between extremes that I hope someday to inherit. My mom was hospitalized last night (we think it's her liver, she has lupus and her organs seem to be in the process of shutting down) and this post really speaks to me right now, helping my suffering seem a little less like suffering, though worrying about her and doing all I can to comfort her. I'm sorry about your misfortunes. Much metta for you and your family. Peace.

gassho
Greg