DONUT ZEN

[Jundo]

Re: DONUT ZEN

My response is simply, `One does does not need to sit zazen - one only needs to live`.

Flame as you wish, but does one truly need to sit zazen - yes it`s helpful for practice, but if life is ``just this``, why would we practice and not simply do or be what we are (without the bullshit)

Hi,

One does not need to sit Zazen ... thus we sit. Sitting oneself on one's Zafu is The Whole and Total Selfless Action, With Not A Thing More To Do, No Other Place To Go ... and thus needs to be practiced.

If one cannot find the time for that, even a few minutes ... then it is all so much harder for ourself to know all of this life, on or off the Zafu (although the Zafu can never truly be stepped off) as The Whole and Total Selfless Action, With Not A Thing More To Do, No Other Place To Go. If one cannot sit still and quiet for a little time, how will one learn to encounter the Timeless Stillness Selfless Quiet that is in both stillness and movement, quiet and noise?

If one cannot find in life a short moment, Whole and Timeless, to sit Zazen ... then how much harder to find Zazen that is all of life ... even in the things we must do and do not wish to do?

Yes, consider that a loving flaming!

Gassho, Jundo

[Keishin]

Re: DONUT ZEN

oh boy, just lost my entire post!

will try to recapture the thoughts....


Hello Ghop, and to all others posting here!

I have wanted to reply to this post and have returned to it and read it several times. Now I have a chance not only to reply, but to reply again, as my post has evaporated!

Let me put Greg's orginal post here:

I don't expect my zazen to have fruit filling. But how does one get past the desire for sweetness, in zazen, in relationships, in life?

My life is a mess. Some of my relationships are too. But my zazen is borderline bliss. And I'm afraid I'm getting addicted. What do I do? Stop sitting? I'm afraid Reality is going to rip me a "new one." I have enough trouble with my "old one."

Any sages here? Help!

gassho
Greg

Right now, zazen is a fruit filled donut for you--So far so good.
Your life and some relationships are a mess, but zazen is bliss--Some things are not so good, some things are good. OK.
You are afraid you are getting addicted. You are afraid of what Reality may do to you. What should you do?

I am no sage, but fools can be of service too!

Addiction.
To my way of thinking, addiction is an extreme way to manage impermanence, a see/saw approach to equinimity.
Addiction is a complex constellation of thoughts/behaviors/actions with physiological components. An 'apache'* (see below) dance so to speak of love/hate; adoration/disdain; yearning/revulsion.

While I have heard that people can become attached to sitting (addicted, if you will), my experience with sitting is that over time zazen is its own antidote to any attachment one might form to zazen (whether the attachment is of a positive or negative nature).
And, there are books out there on zen and the brain that describe how zazen can rewire neural pathways.

You, Ghop are the 'new one' Reality has 'ripped' for itself!

facing the wall, the wall is the blank screen for my thoughts: the well worn rutted ones, the mundane, the novel, the creative ones, the self aggrandizing and the self deprecatory ones
there are spaces between those thoughts
sometimes a little more space between those thoughts
There is a spaciousness, a vast spaciousness in that space between those thoughts.

You ask what you should do?
I would hazard to say you are already doing what you 'should':

You are sitting!

You are your own bodhisattva, you are included in your own vows to save all sentient beings. All teachers I have had advise setting aside a specified amount of time to sit, and recommend a time of day to sit. No more, no less. I never heard a teacher advise anyone to sit 'more' when zazen is pleasant, sweet, and blissful or sit less or skip sitting entirely when sitting is not pleasant.

sitting with bliss
what could be better than this?
sitting with doubt
what's that all about
sitting in wonder
silence is thunder
sitting with a wall
sitting with it ALL
that's all
that's all

---------------------------------
in gratitude to all teachers
past, present and future
may we all realize the buddha way together
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


(*you know--the French dance with the guy in a beret and dangling cigarette and dark clothes, the woman with the hair in a pony-tail, a white striped boat neck top and they 'mime' domestic violence--he, pushing her aside, dragging her by her ponytail, she clutching at his pants leg...)

[Hoyu]

Re: DONUT ZEN

Keishin wrote:

sitting with bliss
what could be better than this?
sitting with doubt
what's that all about
sitting in wonder
silence is thunder
sitting with a wall
sitting with it ALL
that's all
that's all

Hi Keishin,
I love your poem. I think you should also re-post this in the poetry thread!

Gassho,
John

[Hoyu]

Re: DONUT ZEN

Keishin wrote:

oh boy, just lost my entire post!

will try to recapture the thoughts....

P.S. This happened to me before :cry: . I think I may know why. It happend to me after a long post onetime! Treeleaf will log you out after a certian ammount of time. If you're like me, there are times when you can go on and on and on writing. Without saving or previewing(ways to let the system know your still online) you will be considered inactive and get logged out automatically. So next time try to preview what you are writing often just to let the computer know you're still alive(I am assuming of course that you still will be and not have bitten the big one while in the middle of posting :shock: . In which case it really wouldn't matter if you got bumped out anyway!).

Gassho,
John

[ghop]

Re: DONUT ZEN

You are your own bodhisattva, you are included in your own vows to save all sentient beings. All teachers I have had advise setting aside a specified amount of time to sit, and recommend a time of day to sit. No more, no less. I never heard a teacher advise anyone to sit 'more' when zazen is pleasant, sweet, and blissful or sit less or skip sitting entirely when sitting is not pleasant.

sitting with bliss
what could be better than this?
sitting with doubt
what's that all about
sitting in wonder
silence is thunder
sitting with a wall
sitting with it ALL
that's all
that's all

this is brilliant because it is all heart
i envy your realization
thank you so much for posting this

gassho
Greg

[Jundo]

Re: DONUT ZEN

Thank you, Keishin. Yes.

Bows and Bows, J

[Taigu]

Re: DONUT ZEN

Remarkable words, Keishin, dep dep wisdom.
And the poem is greatly appreciated.

gassho


Taigu

[ghop]

Re: DONUT ZEN

So this is an update to my original post.

Reality has found a way to take all the sweetness out of my zazen.

No more donuts. Not even bagels.

I've been doing most of my "sitting" in a hospital chair overlooking my mother as she learns how to be dependant on others for such simple things as lifting a cup of water, or lifting her own body to make it to the plastic bedside toilet to pee. Maybe I should've posted this on the FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS forum. Because let me tell you, this past week has really taught me the "truth" of the First Noble Truth. There is alot of suffering going on inside her room, and I lose touch with the fact that every room in that hospital is full of suffering. And just as I'm about to despair in the face of such a truth Reality keeps moving forward to the next thing and very often the next thing is the THIRD NOBLE TRUTH: WEll-Being is possible ( I know some of you dislike that interpretation, but it works for me, for now). Doctors and nurses do what they can to help comfort her and hopefully cure her...friends and family bring love and kindness and jokes and [i]some[i] relief. In other words, there is much suffering. But there is also much compassion, much giving, much metta. This world is like a plum, some of it bitter, some of it sweet, all of just what it is...a perfect fruit constantly changing into something else, yet always just this. Times like these make me most thankful for this practice, and this sangha. Also many thanks to Jundo for the vision to launch this thing that has challenged, guided, and comforted me. May all beings be happy, healthy, and free from suffering. May all beings live in peace and harmony.

gassho
Greg

[Hoyu]

Re: DONUT ZEN

Hi Greg,
Thanks for letting us know about your mom. I did Metta chanting for you as well as her and dedicated my sit tonight to your mom. Hope she feels better and gets stronger soon!

Gassho,
John

[Jundo]

Re: DONUT ZEN

I've been doing most of my "sitting" in a hospital chair overlooking my mother as she learns how to be dependant on others for such simple things as lifting a cup of water, or lifting her own body to make it to the plastic bedside toilet to pee. Maybe I should've posted this on the FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS forum. Because let me tell you, this past week has really taught me the "truth" of the First Noble Truth. There is alot of suffering going on inside her room, and I lose touch with the fact that every room in that hospital is full of suffering. ... Also many thanks to Jundo for the vision to launch this thing that has challenged, guided, and comforted me. ...

Hi Greg,

Endless concern and love for your mother, your entire family and you. Our Zazen sittings, Services and such will be all dedicated to your mother's well being and peace.

You know, this "Treeleaf thing" was started in part because I was sitting in hospital rooms with my own sick mother for months and months, flying back and forth between Japan and Florida every few weeks. It is for that reason that I became familiar with all the internet resources that make this place. It is dedicated to my mother too.

It was also hard to see her reduced to being a child ... yet my wife and I also had a small child at the time in diapers. Why are we so charmed by the infant who is dependent on us for aid and care, but so sad to see our elders return to be as pure as infants, needing our aid and care? Please sit with that, and sit with the fact that this life is framed by our being like children. When my mother was sick, reduced to a childlike state, I tried to see no difference from the little baby grandchild we brought to visit her. Who is it who judges so-called "endings" as to be mourned, but "beginnings" as a celebration? Who sees "endings" and "beginnings" as standing apart, or even truly there? Celebrate it all! (even as we may mourn too, joy and tears at once!).

On another thread, the story of the mustard seed was mentioned. Yes, it applies to growing old and sickness too ... Can you collect a mustard seed from a house that has not been touched by these things?

Gassho, Jundo

[Dokan]

Re: DONUT ZEN

Hi Greg,

I will include you and your Mom in my metta chants as well.

Gassho,

Shawn

[ghop]

Re: DONUT ZEN

Thank you all for the metta. It means so much. Really.

And Jundo...thanks for all you said. Let me just ponder all that for the next five thousand years :wink: . There's alot of deep wisdom there. Why is it that joy just leaves us wanting more joy, yet suffering sobers, humbles, and teaches us in a way nothing else can? Thank you for sharing your story with me. This life seems to be about letting go...maybe there's something to that zafu after all.

gassho
Greg

[Jundo]

Re: DONUT ZEN

Thank you all for the metta. It means so much. Really.

And Jundo...thanks for all you said. Let me just ponder all that for the next five thousand years :wink: . There's alot of deep wisdom there. Why is it that joy just leaves us wanting more joy, yet suffering sobers, humbles, and teaches us in a way nothing else can? Thank you for sharing your story with me. This life seems to be about letting go...maybe there's something to that zafu after all.

gassho
Greg

I would like to underline again that, in a Buddhist meaning anyway ... there is a difference between 'suffering' (Dukkha) and sadness, pain, loss and the like.

Sadness, happiness, sickness and health, times of well being and physical pain, birth and death, gain and loss ... these are what happen in life. These, however, are not "Dukkha".

Suffering is what is added to all that when we cling, run from/toward or push away all that in life.

It may be helpful to you to try to see that one is not the other.

Gassho, Jundo

[Taigu]

Re: DONUT ZEN

Thank you brother, cannot agree more. What Jundo is pointing out is very hard to accept : we cannot get away with the downs of life. What we can do, just like with thoughts-clouds in Shikantaza. is to let them pass by, not clinging, not identifying, not running. If we buy the fairy tales and the wonder stories ( many of them, every religion, economical system, every society manufactures these would be options) that one day everything will be perfectly as we wish...we are in for a very difficult ride.

gassho

Taigu

[Rich]

Re: DONUT ZEN

Greg, sorry about your Mom. Will keep her in my thoughts and metta prayers.