DONUT ZEN

[ghop]

I don't expect my zazen to have fruit filling. But how does one get past the desire for sweetness, in zazen, in relationships, in life?

My life is a mess. Some of my relationships are too. But my zazen is borderline bliss. And I'm afraid I'm getting addicted. What do I do? Stop sitting? I'm afraid Reality is going to rip me a "new one." I have enough trouble with my "old one."

Any sages here? Help!

gassho
Greg

[Rich]

Re: DONUT ZEN

I'd give you everything i've got for a little peace of mind.
John lennon

Actually its not a bad deal beacause everything you've got is in your head.

[natezenmaster]

Re: DONUT ZEN

But how does one get past the desire for sweetness, in zazen, in relationships, in life?

Practice... and practice.. until we'll see the 'desire for sweetness' and see our wish to 'get past the desire' and from it is borne our ability to not be attached to either. IMHO...

My life is a mess.

You can probably strike out "My" and find uniform agreement..

I wouldn't say my zazen is borderline bliss... perhaps I'm doing it wrong : P ... but I would caution the use of zazen as an escape or as the search for the jelly filling and encourage the practice as practice and the life as life until the two are shown to be no different. Or so goes my view... and that is, as many things are, easier said than done since we are so prone to focus on the saying and not on the doing : P

best wishes...

_/_ Nate

[Seiryu]

Re: DONUT ZEN

I don't expect my zazen to have fruit filling. But how does one get past the desire for sweetness, in zazen, in relationships, in life?
gassho
Greg

Ask yourself; Who is it that is feeling this bliss? Who is it that is getting addicted? Who is it that thinks their life is a mess?

Desire for sweetness, in life, zazen, or whatever is not in itself something to get passed, it is the meaning we put behind the desire that we need to get pass.

Good things are nice, good moments are nice, and donuts are something even Buddha would take if he had to choose between that and a maggot infested fruit. It is the meaning we put to the desire that we should investigate, One should ask "what do I think I will get from this desire? What is it that is fueling this desire?"
And with that keep on sitting. Let the bliss come, embrace and expect it too, just remain completely aware of everything. Remain completely aware of the whole process. Of you sitting, of you expecting bliss, of your desires, just remain aware. And like everything else, it will pass. Don't hide from anything, don't run from anything. Face it, see it, understand it, let it go.

just some ideas...

Gassho

Seiryu

[Jundo]

Re: DONUT ZEN

I don't expect my zazen to have fruit filling. But how does one get past the desire for sweetness, in zazen, in relationships, in life?

My life is a mess. Some of my relationships are too. But my zazen is borderline bliss. And I'm afraid I'm getting addicted. What do I do? Stop sitting? I'm afraid Reality is going to rip me a "new one." I have enough trouble with my "old one."

Any sages here? Help!

gassho
Greg

Some very good guidance in the posts above!

Zazen is sweet jelly fillings of bliss ... also bitter spinach and brocolli. Spinach and brocolli are not my favorite foods, but they are part of a balanced diet. So it is with Zazen, so with all of life (not two, by the way). If I ate only sweets and donuts all the time, I would be fatter than I am!

Sometimes we must even swallow deadly poisons that will kill us (when we have no choice, of course, and though we would rather not).

So, take the advice of folks above.

Do not run after just the jelly ... and know the Joy of even that which life dishes up that is not always purely joyful!

Gassho, J

[Kyonin]

Re: DONUT ZEN

I don't expect my zazen to have fruit filling. But how does one get past the desire for sweetness, in zazen, in relationships, in life?

My life is a mess. Some of my relationships are too. But my zazen is borderline bliss. And I'm afraid I'm getting addicted. What do I do? Stop sitting? I'm afraid Reality is going to rip me a "new one." I have enough trouble with my "old one."

Any sages here? Help!

gassho
Greg

Hey G

If you take my advice, I'd take what I learn in zazen and reading into life. Most of the times we don't realize we have all the answers to our problems in our very hands but we fail to see them because we are attached to stuff.

Zazen is a huge part of our practice, but taking all what we learn into living is also important.

Like Jundo just said, sometimes we have to take head on on the bitter situations in life, but you know what? No life is a mess. We only have to understand how to takle problems without getting attached to aversions.

Hope it helps.

[will]

Re: DONUT ZEN

Practice is daily ghop. We have many choices of things to do. I wouldn't throw away either.

Gassho

Will

[JohnsonCM]

Re: DONUT ZEN

Hey Greg, good to have you back.

So, let's look at the root here.

My life is a mess. Some of my relationships are too. But my zazen is borderline bliss.

Take out the middle sentence and we get:

My life is a mess. But my zazen is borderline bliss.

Now, if you want my opinion (I'm no expert, but I think I can relate on terms of personal experience), we can take the above and with a little creative editing, we might find ourselves here:

my zazen is borderline bliss because My life is a mess.

emphasis added.

I think you know that because your life is a mess, and therefore most likely hectic and crazy and stressful, and your zazen is peaceful and calm - it becomes a place to weather the storm.

Outside, the storm is scary, but inside the zazen hut - its fury gets dulled.

The storm is necessary though. And I think that the more you can accept the 'mess' as it is, a part of life, then the desire to go inside the zazen hut for protection goes away, and you find that you just go into the zazen hut when it's time to get in the zazen hut. Life isn't easy, brother. For example - my week has been crazy. My truck stopped working, I ran out of money, a job I applied for so that I can get out of the one I have now hasn't gotten back to me (they told me they would by yesterday) had to rent a vehicle, got into a gigantic argument with my wife last night, etc. etc. etc. The list really does go on. So I get it, and I get how easy it can become to use zazen as a shield.

Thing is, once that bell goes off, when the time for sitting is over, life is still there, waiting in all it's messy glory. Many people, most I would venture to say, see a storm and start thinking about the destruction it can cause, and the fear it instills. But there is a sort of savage beauty there too. The very nature of Nature, unbound and unrestrained. Life is like that, a splash from every tube of paint on the canvas, a real mess, but with a chaotic majesty none the less.

[ghop]

Re: DONUT ZEN

I think you know that because your life is a mess, and therefore most likely hectic and crazy and stressful, and your zazen is peaceful and calm - it becomes a place to weather the storm.

Thanks. I didn't see that before.

When I say "mess" it is a bit tongue in cheek. My life is actually pretty damn good. My zazen is so great lately because when I sit it is like a lid opening and all the garbage I carry around bubbles up and I see it for what it is and let it go. I become whole. Then I get up and go about my life and get caught up in all the bubbles again. I am making progress in sitting but I don't count it as much because I am having a difficult time translating that into my actual living of life. I have alot of baggage from how my past decisions have hurt more people than I can count. There is much damage and it was my selfish decisions that caused it. It caused a division in the family. Both sides have forgiven me but are not on speaking terms with each other. This is hard for me because, as the person who caused the shit, I deserved forgiveness last. Innocent people should not be held responsible/guilty for MY mistakes. You just can't change people. Not even yourself sometimes. THAT makes life a mess, realizing that when it comes to how we live REALITY we really don't have a choice. We think we do. But we don't. It is what it is.

gassho
Greg

[JohnsonCM]

Re: DONUT ZEN

I think you know that because your life is a mess, and therefore most likely hectic and crazy and stressful, and your zazen is peaceful and calm - it becomes a place to weather the storm.

Thanks. I didn't see that before.

When I say "mess" it is a bit tongue in cheek. My life is actually pretty damn good. My zazen is so great lately because when I sit it is like a lid opening and all the garbage I carry around bubbles up and I see it for what it is and let it go. I become whole. Then I get up and go about my life and get caught up in all the bubbles again. I am making progress in sitting but I don't count it as much because I am having a difficult time translating that into my actual living of life. I have alot of baggage from how my past decisions have hurt more people than I can count. There is much damage and it was my selfish decisions that caused it. It caused a division in the family. Both sides have forgiven me but are not on speaking terms with each other. This is hard for me because, as the person who caused the shit, I deserved forgiveness last. Innocent people should not be held responsible/guilty for MY mistakes. You just can't change people. Not even yourself sometimes. THAT makes life a mess, realizing that when it comes to how we live REALITY we really don't have a choice. We think we do. But we don't. It is what it is.

gassho
Greg

Well, that's the beauty of this path. We understand that each moment is a whole new existance and we need not be the slaves of the karma of our past. We can understand it, see it for what it was, and atone for it as best we can, as geniunely as possible. We all make mistakes and some of them are motivated by the more nefarious parts of human nature, and I don't mean to say that we can hardly be held accountable for the mistakes of our past, but if we attain a measure of realization from them, learn from them and try to be clear of them, then we can say, "yes I did that, and I'm not proud of it, but I am working towards acting from a place of clarity and stillness."

As for carrying around the baggage of past deeds:

Two Buddhist Monks were on a journey, one was more senior than the other. During their journey they approached a rough and raging river. On the river bank they saw a young woman. She was clearly in need of help to cross to the other side of the river without drowning.

The junior monk walked straight past her without giving it a thought and crossed the river. The senior monk offered to help the woman and carried her across the river. Once across they parted ways and the two monks continued on their journey.

As the journey continued, the senior monk could see that the junior monk had something of concern on his mind, and asked what was wrong. The junior monk replied, "How could you carry that woman like that? You know we can't touch women, it's against our way of life". The senior monk answered, "I left the woman at the rivers edge a long way back, why are you still carrying her?"

[Jundo]

Re: DONUT ZEN

Hey Greg, good to have you back.

So, let's look at the root here.

My life is a mess. Some of my relationships are too. But my zazen is borderline bliss.

Take out the middle sentence and we get:

My life is a mess. But my zazen is borderline bliss.

Now, if you want my opinion (I'm no expert, but I think I can relate on terms of personal experience), we can take the above and with a little creative editing, we might find ourselves here:

my zazen is borderline bliss because My life is a mess.

emphasis added.

I think you know that because your life is a mess, and therefore most likely hectic and crazy and stressful, and your zazen is peaceful and calm - it becomes a place to weather the storm.

Outside, the storm is scary, but inside the zazen hut - its fury gets dulled.

Some lovely teachings in this thread!

Zazen will never make all of life's storms go away (It will make some go away or settle ... if those storms we make primarily by the stormy mess of thoughts and emotions in our heads!). But it will not make all of the rainy and thundery storms of this turbulent life go away. (As I often say, Zazen will not even fix a flat tire ... just perhaps allow one to be 'at one' with the flat and the bother of changing it! 8) )

Zazen is rather limited if seen as just a "few minutes of quite refuge from the storms" while we sit on a Zafu. Oh, it can be that too!

However, the real Power of this Practice is when we rise up from the Zafu and take our Zazen with us back into the fray! Then, it can be for us the quiet eye at the center of the terrible storm.

Better said: There is stillness right in all the chaos and motion, quiet that is heard in the terrible noise, peace as one's tightly held possessions are blown around or away. We may batten down the hatches, close the portholes and try to head away from the rocks ... but we also allow the storm to blow.

That is why we do not close our eyes or run away from life in this Practice. Zazen is life, life (sunny or rainy, even life's tornadoes) is Zazen.

We may learn to access the stillness and quiet ... but we can learn to do so even when life feels anything but "still and quiet".

Something like that.

Gassho, J

[ghop]

Re: DONUT ZEN

... but we also allow the storm to blow.

That is why we do not close our eyes or run away from life in this Practice. Zazen is life, life (sunny or rainy, even life's tornadoes) is Zazen.

We may learn to access the stillness and quiet ... but we can learn to do so even when life feels anything but "still and quiet".

Thank you Jundo. Some deep stuff here.

gassho
Greg

[Sloppy_Zen]

Re: DONUT ZEN

My response is simply, `One does does not need to sit zazen - one only needs to live`.

Flame as you wish, but does one truly need to sit zazen - yes it`s helpful for practice, but if life is ``just this``, why would we practice and not simply do or be what we are (without the bullshit)

[Taigu]

Re: DONUT ZEN

We have very good teachers here!!!

Not much to add. Don't want to talk really. The thing is , the eye of the storm is perfectly still. So is the big picture where storm is jsut a speck of dust. In sitting we embrace this often chaotic thing called life. Living the chaotic moment, we may find a sitting space.

gassho


Taigu

[Shokai]

Re: DONUT ZEN

We learn from our mistakes. Zazen allows us space to see our mistakes more clearly. Mindfulness, moment to moment, allows us to see potential mistakes (before they happen? :shock: :roll: 8) ).