Self-Defense

[Ekai]

With all of this talk about how it is wrong to use violence, what about the use of violence in a self-defense situation? As a Buddhist, I would never want to inflict harm on another being but if someone was attacking me with lethal force or with the intention of raping me, I would do what ever it would take to get myself out of that situation safely.

In my martial arts school, we are taught numerous methods to prevent attacks in the first place and to fight only in self-defense. In self-defense, my instructors teach us to use equal amount of force that our attacker is giving us. If someone comes up to you holding a knife and demands your wallet, just give them your wallet and run. Don't attack them unless they actually attack you. If that same person does move to attack you with that knife even after you give them your wallet, then use the self-defense necessary to get away safely.

We are taught to use enough force to get them down on the ground to give you enough time to get the heck out of there safely. Now for a woman defending herself against a larger and stronger man, we would have to do enough damage to them to give us time to get away. That means hurting them badly because if we don't, they could get angry and attack us more. Or they can out run us and attack us again. There are a lot of self-defense techniques to use that vary from being lethal to an arm-bar submission but in a real-life situation, you will have only seconds to respond. You won't have time to think, "Well I am a Buddhist and if I use this or this technique, it will cause the least bit of harm."

So if ever faced with a situation in defending your life and if the use of self-defense causes severe bodily harm or death in order to save your own life or the life of your child, how does that fit in with being a Buddhist? How does that fit in when you are living by the Precepts and what about the karmic effects? I will be completely honest and this might upset some people but if it meant to save my life or keep myself from being brutally raped, I would do whatever it takes to get away safely and/or my child safely. I wouldn't like it and would never intend to hurt anyone. But if I had to, I guess that is something I would have to live with.

What are your thoughts? What would you do?

Thanks,
Jodi

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Self-Defense

I would do whatever it took to ensure the safety of my loved ones. Most likely my own safety too. However, no matter what, I would always look at the man who thought to attack me and my family and wonder. What happened that he saw this as an acceptable choice? What must have gone on in his life to drive him to this extreme? Was his heart truly evil, or was it just his circumstance that put this thought in his mind? What kindness could have been shown to him in his life, instead of suffering, that could have precluded this action?

In America we termed old West outlaws as "bandits" but I rather prefer the Spanish "desperado" which is litterally translated as "desperate men".

[Hans]

Re: Self-Defense

Dear Jodi,

thanks for raising this interesting topic. Obviously we all bring our own unique perspectives to this topic, so let me assure you I don't want to "preach" in any way and will just try to state where this often confused novice stands right now (on my wobbly beginners feet).

We live in a complicated and often dangerous world, sometimes situations leave us without any room for "nice" solutions, in the same way that you described a possible rape and/or mugging scenario. The intention behind an action is of great importance in our practice, and nobody with any normal family ties is expected to e.g. give his/her body to a starving tiger just so the tiger can eat. Our human lives are precious indeed, being able to encounter the Dharma and comprehend even a little bit of the Buddha' teachings is a gift beyond our wildest imagination. Therefore I'd say, do what you must to save yourself, but do not give in to hate and don't enjoy the fact you might have just vanquished your enemy. In order to be an effective fighter, a certain minimum amount of adrenaline fuelled warrior mind might be necessary to overcome our innate animal fear, however cultivating such behaviour patterns also makes us run the risk of becoming accustomed to solving problems through physical force.

It has been my experience though, that those who focussed on following a way of fighting somehow ended up in fights a lot more than people who tried to use different means of resolving conflict. Obviously if some deeply disturbed criminal, whose daily life is a hell realm 24/7, attacks you in a dark alley, he/she might not be in a "let's have a cup of tea and talk" kind of mode. Do what you must to survive by all means, but also make sure you do not let a moments fear and anger turn into lifelong hate. Is this difficult? Of course it is, but that's why we need practice. I could think of an extremely great range of scenarios where I'd be hard put to forgive, but only because I can't do it doesn't mean that it wouldn't be the best long term solution. The Buddhaway is radical when it comes to forgiveness and seeing others as ourselves, if it wasn't it wouldn't be the Buddhaway.

Some say that revenge is a dish best served cold....I'd say revenge and related emotions are dishes the Buddhadharma menu doesn't serve. I'm just saying this to clearly distinguish near-instantaneous survival-reactions from anything remotely resembling emotions that involve the enjoyment of another beings suffering (like kicking someone you already knocked out repeatedly in the head because you are so angry at him/her for having attacked you).

I once saw a documentary about a number of trials in South-Africa after the end of the apartheid regime, where victims of state violence were involved in judging those who had wronged them. It wasn't nice, but I remember being so inspired by the power to forgive that was manifest in some (not all) the individuals present.

We often fail to live up to our guiding ideals, may they be called precepts or whatever, but that doesn't change the fact that they should remain our compass. Doing our best is all we can do. Sometimes our best is not good enough from an idealistic perspective, but still...doing our best is all we can do.

Sorry for the jambalaya of thoughts right there.

Gassho,

Hans

[Risho]

Re: Self-Defense

I would defend myself.

But to think "What would a Buddhist do" (to quote another zen master, and I don't remember who) would be to add another head on top of your own. The point of Zen is to strip away the BS. Instead of adding another belief system or philosophical matrix to your life, it should help to reveal what is necessary in a given moment. So do what you need to do.

As Daido Roshi said, "If it's raining, use an umbrella. If you don't use an umbrella, you'll get wet."

Buddhism shouldn't be sanctimonious and holier than thou... it should be nothing extra, wiping your ass, paying your bills. Who cares what some idea in your head would do, what would you do? That's what matters.

Gassho,

Risho

[Kaishin]

Re: Self-Defense

Act swiftly, reflect deeply. That is my way.


Risho--well said. Great Daido quote.

[Ankai]

Re: Self-Defense

You're defending a post that has come under attack, and you can see that a twelve year old kid has your partner in his rifle's sites and is about to kill him. You have the kid in yours. You now have the choice as to whose life is more valuable- your comrade's or the child's. This IS going to happen. Someone IS going to die, right freaking now, and you have about a second to make your choice. There will be no happy endings. Your choice. GO!
...It's right about then that ideas, doctrines and philosophy go out the window and life really happens.

[Ekai]

Re: Self-Defense

Some say that revenge is a dish best served cold....I'd say revenge and related emotions are dishes the Buddhadharma menu doesn't serve. I'm just saying this to clearly distinguish near-instantaneous survival-reactions from anything remotely resembling emotions that involve the enjoyment of another beings suffering (like kicking someone you already knocked out repeatedly in the head because you are so angry at him/her for having attacked you).

Hans

I agree. In my Kyuki-Do federation, it is stressed frequently to avoid "turnabout". That means to stop defending yourself once you have control of the situation. There is no need to keep going once you have the opportunity to get away safely. If you keep going, then you become the aggressor.

And I agree to not hold on to any anger or resentment or to give into hate if this ever happens. Nobody wins in this type of situation since both sides will suffer.

Thanks,
Jodi

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Self-Defense

You're defending a post that has come under attack, and you can see that a twelve year old kid has your partner in his rifle's sites and is about to kill him. You have the kid in yours. You now have the choice as to whose life is more valuable- your comrade's or the child's. This IS going to happen. Someone IS going to die, right freaking now, and you have about a second to make your choice. There will be no happy endings. Your choice. GO!
...It's right about then that ideas, doctrines and philosophy go out the window and life really happens.

The problem isn’t doctrine or war or anything like that. It’d be great if there was just a big, red, “Reset” button on delusions and attachments where the whole world over people suddenly realized that they didn’t have to let the karma of past injustices and injuries dictate their future actions. The best we can do is try to realize the truth of the Dharma and spread that understanding so that it is taken up by others. It’s a war of attrition, we fight with loving kindness and non-violence and open a path for others to defect to our side. But as Buddhists, Secular Humanists, Average Joeists, or Whateverists – we respect ALL life, to include our own.

There is a world of difference between killing someone because you were told to, or made to, or thought you were justified by your beliefs to and defending yourself against someone who was deluded into trying to cause you harm. I think that the intent is key. And there is also a world of difference between killing a man in self defense and feeling compassion towards that man for whatever horrors his life must have been made of to push him to this decision, and killing a man in self defense and immediately going out and partying because you think you just did the world a favor.

[Rev R]

Re: Self-Defense

dead men make terrible Bodhisattvas.

[Heisoku]

Re: Self-Defense

Didn't Buddhist monks of old carry big sticks and know how to use them?
Presumably after reasoning first?

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Self-Defense

dead men make terrible Bodhisattvas.

It's a terrible and unfortunate truth, but so do some living ones....

[Rev R]

Re: Self-Defense

very true indeed

[Onshin]

Re: Self-Defense

Let's not forget that Bodhidharma and kung fu both came from Shaolin (well, strictly speaking Bodhidharma came to Shaolin) but you get my point. :twisted:

[Saijun]

Re: Self-Defense

Let's not forget that Bodhidharma and kung fu both came from Shaolin (well, strictly speaking Bodhidharma came to Shaolin) but you get my point. :twisted:

...and Shaolin Kung Fu has some of the most horrific weapons I've ever seen as a part of it. Twin hooks, anyone? That's what I think is interesting, what with the precepts and all.

Metta,

Saijun

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Self-Defense

I also want to point out that the Precept we take says to Refrain from taking life.

The talk of kung fu and Shaolin reminds me of a book I read, American Shaolin by Matthew Poly. He went to the Shaolin Monestary to learn kung fu, and ended up being in a sanda (kung fu kick-boxing) tournament. All the monks were teasing him on the ride there, saying things like, "When you face the champion, remember to fall on your back and raise your arms to your face!" or "You can try crying and asking him to stop beating you!"

He turned to the temple's Buddhism Instructor and asked what the Buddha would have given him for advice, and he replied, " Well, the Buddha taught us to love everybody. You could try loving him, but the Buddha had lousy kung fu."

All things in perspective, I suppose..... :mrgreen: