Getting mad fits sometimes

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  • AlanLa
    Member
    • Mar 2008
    • 1405

    #16
    Re: Getting mad fits sometimes

    I want to be very careful here about my point, or points, which are * below:

    *My take-away from when I studied the precepts as part of Jukai was that to be angry was not good, but that being passionate about something was good, but the line between passion and anger can be a thin one, thus the dance. But it’s hard to dance with anger if you don’t acknowledge the music of anger that we all have in our lives.

    *As a very fallible human being that is not yet a fully realized Buddha (as I suspect you are also), I am subject to anger; I have not yet transcended it, and it’s highly unlikely I ever will. As such, I believe it is better to acknowledge and accept my anger than try to suppress it. Anger can be an honest expression, thus okay. But it’s not okay to get trapped by it, caught up in it, because then I am clearly violating the precepts.

    *To be averse to anger seems dishonest, thus piling delusion on top of delusion, not good. On the other hand, to be aware of anger allows you some control over it so that you won’t get caught up in it and can then let it go. There are times in our life where we are going to get angry, so it fits in our life in those times and places, but this is no excuse to live an angry life. Be angry; then move on. Think of it as bad tea; you make it, drink it, and move on from it trying to make better tea ever after.

    *To be simplistic about anger is to miss the point. First of all, no emotion is that simple. Second of all, anger is really complicated. A prime example is how anger can come from love, as any parent can tell you when talking about how much they love children yet they also are inevitably infuriated by those damn/great kids. Honest expressions of anger can tell you a lot about yourself as well as be an effective means of communicating with others. We all learned a lot from our parents’ expressions of anger, and for most of us that was good and important stuff, though possibly painful in more ways than one. It's that early history that sets us up for how we deal with anger (or not) later on, which is exactly what we need to be aware of.

    *Dosho, I have a very free class as far as expression goes. The message I unceasingly try to convey is that they are to contribute as honestly and often to me as I do the same to them. In that context, my anger at my students was entirely unpremeditated and totally honest in that moment, and it effectively conveyed to them my passion for the topic and their responsibilities as students. Once that moment was over, I then tried for the rest of the day to let it go, and it took all day to do that. But I was aware enough to not get too caught up in it any more than I already was. Again, I am just another fallible human trying to deal with things the best I can. Could I have handled that situation better? Probably. Would suppressing my anger have been healthy for me? I don’t think so (see below for more about this). Would suppressing my anger have been helpful for them? It’s hard to say, but probably not because life involves responsibility and consequences and sometimes this needs to be conveyed in strong terms. Such is the day-to-day delusionary reality we live in and must acknowledge. Also, and maybe more importantly, or at least more personally, I have no kids except for these students, and my attitude toward them is often parental care and concern, so in a way I was just mad they ran out into the street without looking for cars, which in this case was doing a simple yet important homework assignment.

    The main reason I started this thread was because I have just recently become aware of just how angry I am. As I said in my original post, I have spent most of my life suppressing anger, and that was functional for me for all that time. But no more. I’ve been living a lie in regards to anger and I just can’t live that way any longer because it’s been eating me up from the inside out. What am I angry about? To keep this short, let’s just say disability related issues such as the death of many friends and the mistreatment of them and the living by society. It’s been a passionate issue for most of my life, but I am just now beginning to hear the music of that anger, just now learning how to dance with it. And when I say just now, I mean within the past couple weeks or so, which means lots of dancing missteps, and that’s okay. We learn from our mistakes, such is their blessing upon us.

    Anger fits in my life somewhere, of this I am sure, and now I am working on the how and where of that fitting process. My guess is that I am not without dance partners here.

    Thanks for listening
    Just don’t be angry at me, because I will totally kick your ass! :twisted:
    AL (Jigen) in:
    Faith/Trust
    Courage/Love
    Awareness/Action!

    I sat today

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    • Kyonin
      Dharma Transmitted Priest
      • Oct 2010
      • 6748

      #17
      Re: Getting mad fits sometimes

      Originally posted by AlanLa
      Just don’t be angry at me, because I will totally kick your ass! :twisted:
      Bring it on!! HAHAHA j/k

      Anger is a very powerful feeling and yes, we all have it and it manifests more often than we would like it to. Thing is, when we let anger control our actions, then that's when we hurt ourselves or other people.

      My nature is not of an angry guy at all but I sometimes get angry but try to cool down. I have found that the most stupid actions I have always taker were when angry.

      So I just focus at the problem at hand and try to solve it. By the time I check up on the anger, it's always gone. Not sure if that makes sense...
      Hondō Kyōnin
      奔道 協忍

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      • AlanLa
        Member
        • Mar 2008
        • 1405

        #18
        Re: Getting mad fits sometimes

        We are of the same mind today, so I will spare your ass-kicking :roll:
        AL (Jigen) in:
        Faith/Trust
        Courage/Love
        Awareness/Action!

        I sat today

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        • Shokai
          Dharma Transmitted Priest
          • Mar 2009
          • 6480

          #19
          Re: Getting mad fits sometimes

          ye-e ea-a-a-AA Jigen !!! 8)
          合掌,生開
          gassho, Shokai

          仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

          "Open to life in a benevolent way"

          https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

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          • AlanLa
            Member
            • Mar 2008
            • 1405

            #20
            Re: Getting mad fits sometimes

            Ouch! Don't hurt me! I didn't mean it! Cant you take a joke? Jeez!
            OwOwOwOwOwOwOwOwOwOwOwOwOwOwOwOwOwOwOwOw
            AL (Jigen) in:
            Faith/Trust
            Courage/Love
            Awareness/Action!

            I sat today

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            • Ankai
              Novice Priest-in-Training
              • Nov 2007
              • 1044

              #21
              Re: Getting mad fits sometimes

              I get "mad fits" sometimes. They usually go away in a couple of hours.
              Gassho!
              護道 安海


              -Godo Ankai

              I'm still just starting to learn. I'm not a teacher. Please don't take anything I say too seriously. I already take myself too seriously!

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              • Amelia
                Member
                • Jan 2010
                • 4980

                #22
                Re: Getting mad fits sometimes

                Originally posted by anista
                Anger is considered one of the mental afflictions, not just in the Pali canon but also in Mahayana tradition. Anger leads inevitably to suffering. It would thus be wise to seek to control anger, see what causes it, and what it will lead to.
                I have read two camps and I agree with them both?! :shock:

                I have been reading some Wilhelm Reich therapy material lately, and, controversy aside, Reich believed that anger, when channeled properly and not destructively, was an appropriate release of pent-up energy that, if withheld, could drive a man crazy/ to imbalance.

                I have also read that anger must be watched, controlled, or let-go of.

                I don't really know how two things that are opposed can agree in my mind like this. I probably am just indecisive.

                Originally posted by anista
                Yes, by fear, I'm sure she didn't mean that bodhisattvas go around being afraid of different actions. I'm sure she meant that as a figure of speech. Something like, bodhisattvas are more mindful of what they are actually doing, because they know what consequences an action can lead to. We ordinary beings sometimes get more preoccupied with the consequences of our actions, without realizing what caused them.
                I don't know about you guys, but I've never met a bodhisattva... I don't know if they never feel anger or fear... They might just acknowledge it differently. It perhaps wouldn't manifest in the mind of a bodhisattva with the same flavor as it does for me...

                Originally posted by AlanLa
                *My take-away from when I studied the precepts as part of Jukai was that to be angry was not good, but that being passionate about something was good, but the line between passion and anger can be a thin one, thus the dance. But it’s hard to dance with anger if you don’t acknowledge the music of anger that we all have in our lives.
                I like this. Maybe understanding the meaning of passion is that Middle-Way to my indecisiveness...
                求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
                I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

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                • AlanLa
                  Member
                  • Mar 2008
                  • 1405

                  #23
                  Re: Getting mad fits sometimes

                  Amelia, where you see contradiction and opposition I see complexity. Anger is like fire; when used in a controlled manner it can actually be constructive (being passionate about something that will benefit others), but when misused it can be very destructive. I'm in the process of trying to understand that complexity in my own life. I think to see anger as only destructive precludes what might be an important part of our lived experience, and so I say it might be okay to dance with mara. But be careful that dance does not spin out of control to the point it burns you and all that surrounds you. In other words, I think there is a middle way, a complex way, with anger.

                  As for it being a mental affliction, I have three thoughts. First, I agree. Second, the best way to get rid of those afflictions is to become aware of them and accept them so that you can drop them. Denying our afflictions does no good. Mara may ask us to dance, but that doesn't mean Mara has to lead that dance, and turning Mara down denies you the chance to work on your dancing skills. Third, we are filled with lots of different mental afflictions that come in many sizes, so a little anger is a minor mental affliction, but a lot of anger is a BIG mental affliction. I would suggest that our efforts are better aimed at the BIG afflictions over the smaller ones. So, no matter how much Mara wants you to do bumping and grinding dirty dancing with her, keep in mind that the dance is chaperoned and that you need to follow the rules, which are better known as the precepts.

                  Finally, you haven't ever met a Bodhisattva? Really? If you want to meet one, I suggest you look in the mirror and say "How do you do. My name is Amelia."
                  AL (Jigen) in:
                  Faith/Trust
                  Courage/Love
                  Awareness/Action!

                  I sat today

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                  • Jundo
                    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                    • Apr 2006
                    • 41024

                    #24
                    Re: Getting mad fits sometimes

                    Hi,

                    I will say again that, in my view, anger is best avoided in almost all cases. It is TNT and matches. To repeat:

                    It is more likely to end up as a fight in a bar, a broken relationship or starting a war than it is to do any positive good. As well, there are other emotions and perspective which can accomplish the positive goods more effectively.

                    So, for example, calm reflection, looking for a constructive solution and keeping one's head as much as possible while taking effective action is an approach more likely to solve a problem in this world or in one's life than tossing more fuel on the fires of hate. ... Perhaps, "righteous indignation" or "tough love" (if a parent ... even the Zen Master's "30 blows" are more of this kind) or "a firm hand with a calm mind" may be justified by a situation ...

                    ... but I would say that anger is rarely, if ever, an appropriate response.
                    However, I happened to stumble upon something I didn't know about the traditional depictions of Kannon, Bodhisattva of Compassion, as I was doing some reading for today's 'sit-a-long' talk.

                    viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3666&p=52163#p52163

                    So often depicted as gentleness, but not always. In the traditional depictions of the "9 or 11-headed Kannon" ...



                    ... "The faces of the various Bodhisattva usually include ... three angry faces (shinnumen ç??æ?'面) ..." Why? Taigen Dan Leighton writes, in his wonderful book Faces of Compassion: Classic Bodhisattva Archetypes and their Modern Expression, explains:

                    [While the] three faces in front are usually smiling kindly, the three to the figures left ... are wrathful and scowling, directed to those beings who require stern guidance to awaken ...

                    [Another form of Kannon known as] Horse-Headed Avalokiteshvara ... appears as a fierce, wrathful figure ... [who] expresses compassion with an angry, terrifying visage for whoever needs such incitement to awaken or be helped.




                    Well, I suppose that TNT and matches can be useful too ... to blast open tunnels and move great obstructions! However, certainly, only when used with the greatest care, respect for its power, and by an expert's hands. I think Kannon sometimes looks angry ... but isn't at heart.

                    Gassho, Jundo
                    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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                    • AlanLa
                      Member
                      • Mar 2008
                      • 1405

                      #25
                      Re: Getting mad fits sometimes

                      [i][Edit: Don't bother reading further. Just re-read Jundo's post above, which is WAY better than what I had to say below. The post below was my self's reaction -- but not an angry reaction [img]{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif[/img]
                      AL (Jigen) in:
                      Faith/Trust
                      Courage/Love
                      Awareness/Action!

                      I sat today

                      Comment

                      • Stephanie

                        #26
                        Re: Getting mad fits sometimes

                        I'm suspicious of anyone who says we shouldn't experience anger. I think that's an idealistic view. It's a natural reaction, and because anger is natural, it serves a purpose. Anger is an alert system. Many times when I've been engaging in some dysfunctional activity in my life, it was only the rising tide of anger that finally got me to look and see that I was doing something dysfunctional, which then allowed me to discontinue that activity.

                        I think there's a difference between honoring anger and indulging anger. In my senior psychology thesis in college, I distinguished between two different types of emotion, one kind I related to the amygdala and the other to the prefrontal cortex. Basically, what I thought and found supported by my experiment was that some emotions are immediate and powerful--and these we can do little about, at least in terms of their arising in the mind. These are related to the amygdala, a primal and ancient part of our brain that correlates to arousal states and basic emotions. However, what we can do something about is the perpetuation of these emotional states through our elaboration of them, a process that largely is related to the prefrontal cortex.

                        I would distinguish between the rise of an angry emotion embedded in a context, and the elaboration on anger that allows anger that no longer has an immediate context to continue. Resentment is precisely this latter type of anger--ruminating on something that happened that is over, and continuing to feel anger about it. This is the kind of anger I've learned how to "control" through zazen--at least in the sense that when I have the awareness to see it is happening, I know better now how to let go and drop it, and that it is pointless to keep it going, it is a fantasy.

                        I think all people do better when they learn how to use their power to say no, to stand up and fight against injustice. I have personally found that being responsive to my anger is a key part of this process. This does not mean being reactive--although certainly I become reactive sometimes--it means being aware that something is making me feel backed up against a wall, so that I can, if possible, get myself out of that position. Some equanimity is required, to be able to honor the anger without being pushed by it. It's a life's work I've far from perfected, but I've certainly gotten to the point where I do not indulge but also do not fear or dismiss anger when it arises.

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                        • Rich
                          Member
                          • Apr 2009
                          • 2615

                          #27
                          Re: Getting mad fits sometimes

                          Originally posted by Stephanie

                          I would distinguish between the rise of an angry emotion embedded in a context, and the elaboration on anger that allows anger that no longer has an immediate context to continue. Resentment is precisely this latter type of anger--ruminating on something that happened that is over, and continuing to feel anger about it. This is the kind of anger I've learned how to "control" through zazen--at least in the sense that when I have the awareness to see it is happening, I know better now how to let go and drop it, and that it is pointless to keep it going, it is a fantasy.

                          I think all people do better when they learn how to use their power to say no, to stand up and fight against injustice. I have personally found that being responsive to my anger is a key part of this process. This does not mean being reactive--although certainly I become reactive sometimes--it means being aware that something is making me feel backed up against a wall, so that I can, if possible, get myself out of that position. Some equanimity is required, to be able to honor the anger without being pushed by it. It's a life's work I've far from perfected, but I've certainly gotten to the point where I do not indulge but also do not fear or dismiss anger when it arises.
                          When I was young I was called a reactionary and had no idea what they were talking about. Now I like to think I'm more proactive and able to put it down or let it go, but I can't really control when it pops up. Thanks for explaining this. The only thing I would add is that sometimes the 'fight against injustice' takes a long time and seeing your mistakes as well as others, kind of tempers your reaction or action as the case may be.
                          _/_
                          Rich
                          MUHYO
                          無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

                          https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

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                          • Taigu
                            Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest
                            • Aug 2008
                            • 2710

                            #28
                            Re: Getting mad fits sometimes

                            Anger, inexhaustible topic...

                            Very precious energy there. The problem is not anger , it is how we relate to it and sometimes identify with it. As we all know, once we reach a point of no return, we are caught in anger, we become angry and nothing can be done. As long as we can appreciate its quality and texture, we don't have to fall into it. The game is to communicate with its raw quality without being overwhelemed and subdued by its mesmerizing whirling stake.

                            And yes, sometimes, a Bodhisattva will wrap herself or himself in wrath. The wrath is intended to dispell the illusion of a separate and solid self. Not to arm , but to disarm, to render harmless.

                            I try not to allow anger to be the boss. But as a French with a very choleric personnality, I have plenty of this red energy.

                            gassho


                            TAigu

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                            • Ankai
                              Novice Priest-in-Training
                              • Nov 2007
                              • 1044

                              #29
                              Re: Getting mad fits sometimes

                              Ah... thank you Taigu Sensei.
                              It seems to me that it's not the sense or feeling of anger- which is part of humanity- that is "wrong," nor necessarily the actions its energy may provoke us to. (According to the Christian faith, when Jesus physically cleared the Temple of people who were making money off God, he, in his wrath, did not sin. Regardless of one's beliefs about Jesus, that story and idea are worth thinking about.)
                              the Monks of our own faith in Lord Buddha who have taken to the streets in protest around the world at different times- some in extreme ways- were driven by anger to do things. "Wrong?" I don't know.
                              What IS definitely wrong is to allow anger to become our identity. In the west, we don't (usually) say, "I feel angry." (Or, I feel happy, or I feel sad, etc...) No no... we say, "I AM angry." It's really not how American English works, is it? Think about it. Mom scolds her boy saying, "I am very angry at you right now!" Or we say, "I am totally pissed off!" or, "I'm just so mad!" (Mad? Interesting.) Powerful word, that little, "AM." Other languages don't really put the identifier there. Linguistically, it's pretty weird. I wouldn't say, "I feel Karl." (under normal circumstances.) I'd say, "I am Karl," or maybe, "My name's Karl." But when talking about emotions, especially powerful ones like this, I'll always say, "I am very angry!" (and say other colorful things.)
                              Why the "am?" Why do we in the West SO hugely identify with our feelings? And in the long run, isn't that part of the overall difficulty in presenting the Dharma here? We ALL feel things. So why must I make this anger "mine?" Why must I BECOME it to express it? Why the "am?" Something maybe we need to overcome in our collective mindset. Or just part of who and what we are. I don't know.
                              I am confused.
                              Gassho!
                              護道 安海


                              -Godo Ankai

                              I'm still just starting to learn. I'm not a teacher. Please don't take anything I say too seriously. I already take myself too seriously!

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                              • Taigu
                                Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest
                                • Aug 2008
                                • 2710

                                #30
                                Re: Getting mad fits sometimes

                                Great post and great questions, KvonNJ,

                                There is no easy answer, and the more I grow into this path, the less I like the taste of easy answers...
                                My first advice would be to stay with "I don't know".
                                Many guys out there will lecture about the differences between our Western mindset and the Eastern way of being looking at the linguistic and cultural differences...
                                I think emotions are also an issue for the Japanese salary man. It is part of being human.
                                Not to identify is one way, the other one is to jump into it , be one with, until one communicates directly with the energy. And sometimes we are just sad or just happy. Understanding that it is OK and no big deal is also a good option, putting this tandrum or upset mind into perspective, give it space. No need for distraction, just the sheer awareness that the world is much bigger, that this box-like state I am getting locked in.

                                gassho

                                Taigu

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