Shouting at Students

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40363

    #16
    Re: Shouting at Students

    SHUT UP! :evil:

    Actually, there is a time for a bit of "tough love" (emphasis on the 'love' part), and some folks benefit from the marine drill instructor. Not my style so much or Taigu's, and for some folks it just backfires. However, there is a time to push push push some folks forward to attain that 'no where to attain' ...

    Dogen relates this story about his teacher ...

    When staying at Tendo Monastery in China, while the old master Nyojo was abbot there, we sat zazen until about eleven o’clock at night and got up at about half-past two to sit zazen. The abbot sat with the assembly in the sodo, never taking even one night off.

    While sitting, many monks fell asleep. The abbot walked around hitting them with his fist or his slipper, scolding them and encouraging them to wake up. If they continued to sleep, he went to the shodo, rang the bell, and called his attendants to light the candles. On the spur of the moment he would say such things as; “What is the use of sleeping? Why do you gather in a sodo [monk's hall]? Why did you become a monk and enter this monastery?”

    One time, his immediate attendant said, “The monks in the sodo are tired and sleepy. They may fall ill or lose their aspiration because of the long hours of sitting. Please shorten the time of zazen.”

    Angrily the abbot replied, “We must never do that. People without bodhi-mind who temporarily stay in the sodo would sleep even if we sat for only half an hour or less. Practitioners with bodhi-mind who aspire to practice are happier the longer they are able to sit and therefore, practice much harder.


    http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/common_ ... 02-25.html

    However, we have to be very cautious ... because sometimes a well meaning "spank" can turn into teasing and abuse and power trips, as sometimes seen in that book mentioned on Eiheiji.

    Gassho and 40 blows, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    Comment

    • AlanLa
      Member
      • Mar 2008
      • 1405

      #17
      Re: Shouting at Students

      Sorry, this is not really related:
      My own father spanked me exactly once in my life. The rest of the time, he would tell me to stop once, then let me learn for myself why something was a bad idea. Which was more compassionate? Which was more effective?
      This is also true for me, and being paralyzed from the waist down I can't even feel my ass :roll: but it was damn effective. Whatever I did, I know I never did it again. I'll leave the rest of that lesson to you.

      My other reactions to this thread belong elsewhere....
      AL (Jigen) in:
      Faith/Trust
      Courage/Love
      Awareness/Action!

      I sat today

      Comment

      • Jundo
        Treeleaf Founder and Priest
        • Apr 2006
        • 40363

        #18
        Re: Shouting at Students

        Originally posted by Jundo
        SHUT UP! :evil:

        Actually, there is a time for a bit of "tough love" (emphasis on the 'love' part), and some folks benefit from the marine drill instructor. Not my style so much or Taigu's, and for some folks it just backfires. However, there is a time to push push push some folks forward to attain that 'no where to attain' ...

        Dogen relates this story about his teacher ...

        When staying at Tendo Monastery in China, while the old master Nyojo was abbot there, we sat zazen until about eleven o’clock at night and got up at about half-past two to sit zazen. The abbot sat with the assembly in the sodo, never taking even one night off.

        While sitting, many monks fell asleep. The abbot walked around hitting them with his fist or his slipper, scolding them and encouraging them to wake up. If they continued to sleep, he went to the shodo, rang the bell, and called his attendants to light the candles. On the spur of the moment he would say such things as; “What is the use of sleeping? Why do you gather in a sodo [monk's hall]? Why did you become a monk and enter this monastery?”

        One time, his immediate attendant said, “The monks in the sodo are tired and sleepy. They may fall ill or lose their aspiration because of the long hours of sitting. Please shorten the time of zazen.”

        Angrily the abbot replied, “We must never do that. People without bodhi-mind who temporarily stay in the sodo would sleep even if we sat for only half an hour or less. Practitioners with bodhi-mind who aspire to practice are happier the longer they are able to sit and therefore, practice much harder.


        http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/common_ ... 02-25.html

        However, we have to be very cautious ... because sometimes a well meaning "spank" can turn into teasing and abuse and power trips, as sometimes seen in that book mentioned on Eiheiji.

        Gassho and 40 blows, J
        Please have a look at that other thread posted by Al today ... and "playing with fire" ...

        viewtopic.php?p=52041#p52041

        Gassho, J
        ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

        Comment

        • Shokai
          Treeleaf Priest
          • Mar 2009
          • 6394

          #19
          Re: Shouting at Students

          With a wet noodle?? :lol:
          合掌,生開
          gassho, Shokai

          仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

          "Open to life in a benevolent way"

          https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

          Comment

          • tedmac
            Member
            • Jun 2010
            • 89

            #20
            Re: Shouting at Students

            Seems I'm late to the discussion, but I'd like to step in and call for more yelling. Not more anger or bullying, just yelling. Many of us come to Zen with very set ideas about what constitutes violence, Zen, the role of the teacher, and the role of 'me' and I think it is useful to carefully set those ideas aside. My former Zendo in New York was part of an Aikido dojo, and it was not unusual to hear a shout during Zazen. There was no meanness--just a wake up. Since most of the students were also Aikido students, they were accustomed to kiai--the 'spirit-shout' or energetic vocalization that you sometimes hear in the martial arts. We also used the kyosaku regularly: but only when 1) a student requested being struck by placing her/his hands in gassho as the jikijitsu walked past during zazen; 2) if someone actually fell asleep--but then only as a nudge or tap and only if the student didn't wake up when the jiki approached. The kyosaku is the 'encouragement stick'.

            My larger point is, it is easy to categorize yelling during Zazen as 'violent' or 'bullying.' I think it is important to let those categories fall away; yelling, silence, angry teacher, happy teacher, violent, non-violent. It is all just zazen. That doesn't mean that violence doesn't exist--it is all around us. Many of us were, as Ammon Hennacy said, born into the world carrying an arsenal: the weapons of sexual privilege, the weapons of racial privilege, the weapons of economic privilege. I think Zazen is one way to set down our own weapons.

            I'll let Cat Stevens (Yusef Mohammed) play me off.

            Well
            If you want to sing out
            Sing out.
            And if you want to be free
            Be free.
            'Cause there's a million things to be.
            You know that there are.
            And if you want to live high
            Live high.
            And if you want to live low
            Live low.
            'Cause there's a million ways to go.
            You know that there are.

            You can do what you want.
            The opportunity's on.
            And if you find a new way

            You can do it today.
            You can make it all true.
            And you can make it undo
            You see.
            Ah
            It's easy.
            Ah
            You only need to know.

            Well
            If you want to say yes
            Say yes.
            And if you want to say no
            Say no.
            Cause there's a million ways to go.
            You know that there are.
            And if you want to be me
            Be me.
            And if you want to be you
            Be you.
            Cause thee's a million things to do.
            You know that there are.

            Comment

            • will
              Member
              • Jun 2007
              • 2331

              #21
              Re: Shouting at Students

              Well, that's what I think anyway. OKAY!!!!!!!!!
              You don't have to shout
              [size=85:z6oilzbt]
              To save all sentient beings, though beings are numberless.
              To penetrate reality, though reality is boundless.
              To transform all delusion, though delusions are immeasurable.
              To attain the enlightened way, a way non-attainable.
              [/size:z6oilzbt]

              Comment

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