Discipline - how to cultivate it?

[natezenmaster]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

When it comes to 'judging' I think its similar to discussions on "right or wrong". One can make an argument that we shouldn't be so dualistic and so judgmental when it comes to right or wrong.. but fact is.. there are skillful and unskillful efforts. In that sense, causing harm is 'wrong' or unskillful. In the same sense or line of thinking, some measure of discipline is skillful. It helps to overcome the ego. It helps to overcome the tendency to always please or appease 'me' or to feed the story line of how important our job is or life is... Along that line then it is necessary to sit for longer periods of time because its a skillful effort.. a skillful practice.

Do you judge your sitting? "I'm doing this wrong? Man, I suck.. my mind is all over" or "My mind is clear. I am a Buddha. I should be a Yogi, I'm so awesome.." In this case its unskillful. Surely you shouldn't be judging your sitting..

From that then... I believe sitting for a couple minutes is more skillful than not sitting at all. Sitting for a half hour is more skillful than sitting for a couple of minutes. It isn't a judgement; its just a part or construct of our existence and a matter of our intent.

Practicing the many kinds of right
Naturally purifies the mind.

For me, I am most skillful and most 'right' when I am sitting daily and for a longer period; some better than none, more better than less.. is that a judgement of 'better' or a truth of my reality?... A story in Shobogenzo (Shoaku-makusa):

Lay disciple: "What is the Great Intention of the Buddha-Dharma?"
Master Dorin: "Not to produce wrong, to practice the many kinds of right."
Disciple: "If that is the Great Intention, even a child of three knows it and can say it."
Master Dorin: "Although a child of three can speak the truth, even myself as an old man of eighty has to make continuous efforts to practice it!"



_/_ Nate

[Saijun]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

When it comes to 'judging' I think its similar to discussions on "right or wrong". One can make an argument that we shouldn't be so dualistic and so judgmental when it comes to right or wrong.. but fact is.. there are skillful and unskillful efforts. In that sense, causing harm is 'wrong' or unskillful. In the same sense or line of thinking, some measure of discipline is skillful. It helps to overcome the ego. It helps to overcome the tendency to always please or appease 'me' or to feed the story line of how important our job is or life is... Along that line then it is necessary to sit for longer periods of time because its a skillful effort.. a skillful practice.

Do you judge your sitting? "I'm doing this wrong? Man, I suck.. my mind is all over" or "My mind is clear. I am a Buddha. I should be a Yogi, I'm so awesome.." In this case its unskillful. Surely you shouldn't be judging your sitting..

From that then... I believe sitting for a couple minutes is more skillful than not sitting at all. Sitting for a half hour is more skillful than sitting for a couple of minutes. It isn't a judgement; its just a part or construct of our existence and a matter of our intent.

Practicing the many kinds of right
Naturally purifies the mind.

For me, I am most skillful and most 'right' when I am sitting daily and for a longer period; some better than none, more better than less.. is that a judgement of 'better' or a truth of my reality?... A story in Shobogenzo (Shoaku-makusa):

Lay disciple: "What is the Great Intention of the Buddha-Dharma?"
Master Dorin: "Not to produce wrong, to practice the many kinds of right."
Disciple: "If that is the Great Intention, even a child of three knows it and can say it."
Master Dorin: "Although a child of three can speak the truth, even myself as an old man of eighty has to make continuous efforts to practice it!"



_/_ Nate

Hello Nate,

I do agree with you, and you put it much more succinctly than I have heretofore been able. I suppose what I was trying to get across is to be careful that one doesn't puff up because of the volume of sitting one has been doing, or berate oneself because of the lack thereof; "just sitting" is "just sitting," whether it be for ten minutes or an hour.

Metta,

Saijun

[Risho]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

Those are good points. I think the way we express it varies because to some extent we just have guidelines from teachers, but then we just have to apply those to ourselves and figure out what works for each of us. I completely agree though, getting into that mental judging that 5 minutes isn't good enough, I'm just not going to sit completely causes problems. Speaking of which, not just with zazen, but with exercise, diet, quitting smoking. I've noticed the inability of the ego to function within this middle path of relax... hey I have 5 minutes that's all I'm going to do. My ego is a purist, it's all or nothing. To my ego, if I miss a day of working out, or I mess up and have a smoke, my plan is out the window.

The only way I've ever been able to have the discipline to be consistent with working out, diet and quitting smoking is by shutting the mind off. Sometimes I just laugh at my self-sabotage. It's kind of like zazen. You just have to literally do it.. But that is what works for me, I would never establish some principal that should be an end all be all for everyone. I guess that's the fun of it all.

IN any case good points.

Gassho,

Risho

[Kyonin]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

Hey man.

I do get distracted a lot sometimes. Some days I get too sleepy. Thing is I just do it.

My main motivation? Silence, understanding... and then again, no goal at all. All I can say is that it's something I enjoy and I simply do it every morning at 6 AM. And it's awesome.

Maybe you need to read a couple of books about meditation and Zen to start understanding why you need to meditate on a regular basis.

Now we all have different motivations and while reading about zazen you might find yours.

Hope that helps.

[Hoyu]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

Hi All,
The Zazen everyday model is great In theory but anyone with a family, illness, etc knows that this isn't always possible. Though it should be something one strives for!
Time(if it truely exists in the first place) is relative to the perspective of the observer. So drop all ideas of time being better or worse than time. Its all just time!
As said before 2 minutes, if thats all you have, is fine.
Doing something on a larger scale(30 minutes every day) is great, just don't let it over shadow practice on a smaller scale(10 minutes).
It doesn't have to be an all or nothing mentality.
Say I one day strive to live in a mansion. It would be unwise to reject shelter in anything less untill I get one!!

For discipline, an effective way to consistantly do something(good or bad!) is to make it a habit.

Worrying about such things as time, posture, etc will only make your practice bring you more of(suffering) that which it's supposed to free you from! It's counterproductive.

Gassho,
John

[Saijun]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

Worrying about such things as time, posture, etc will only make your practice bring you more of(suffering) that which it's supposed to free you from! It's counterproductive.

Gassho,
John

Hello John,

One could see, though, how such efforts could be a demonstration of the futility of trying to make things as one wants them to be, instead of just sitting with them as they are.

Perhaps even "bad" sitting could be a vehicle to "good" sitting (understanding, though, that neither is "good" or "bad")?

Metta,

Saijun

[Jundo]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

Hello friends,

May I ask why ten minutes is better than two? Why twenty is better than ten? I understand the need for formal practice, and the importance of forming habits. However, is the difference between "good" zazen and "bad" zazen anything more substantial than what we want that particular sitting to be?

What happens when one stops trying to make things differently than they are?

Metta,

Saijun

Hi Saijun,

This is a very good question.

In Zazen, we sit with each moment ... each moment of each moment ... holding all time and space within it, complete and whole. An instant of Zazen is a billion trillion gazzillion years of Zazen ... and the timeless too ... fully realized, held, manifested, whole and complete in each instant.

On the other hand, as another face of the no-sided coin ... one has to sit for a certain time to allow the body-mind to settle a bit, taste and enter this Timeless Fact. (YES, THIS IS A KOAN!)

It is rather like swimming in a pool to the "other shore" in which each stroke can be embraced as a constant arriving, and that ultimately there is "no place to go" because all the water is here all along ... and yet, and yet, if one does not do a sufficient number of laps, one cannot realize the point! :shock:

Taigu and I have actually been talking about this for awhile ... about the length of Zazen we should recommend. What is a sufficient amount of time ... or number of laps ... to allow someone to settle and get to "no place to get"? This "nothing to attain" takes some time to truly sink into one's bones (even if there all along!) :roll:

In the past, the daily "job" of monks in monasteries was to be ... monks in a monastery, and to sit Zazen as well as do many other tasks ... cleaning the temple, cooking meals in the kitchen, working in the fields, begging, performing ceremonies, keeping the accounting books and paying the bills (yes, even a temple must do that), shopping for provisions. However, they had lots and lots of time for Zazen.

But, I actually believe that shorter periods of Zazen can be sufficient if "quality time" Zazen (as opposed to "quantity time" Zazen). So, Taigu and I are thinking of making a rule around here recommending 15 minutes of Zazen per day ... so long as one sits at least a few minutes, or even a few moments of that Zazen with each moment holding all time and space within it, complete and whole (and the timeless too ... fully realized, held, manifested, whole and complete in each instant). Of course, if someone wishes and feels that they benefit from sitting longer ... 20 or 30 minutes, or many times a day ... that is fine! However, our recommendation will be, as a standard, 15 to 30 minutes a day of "quality time" ... with 15 minutes being just fine if "quality time" sitting. Our concern is to find the right amount of time for working people who have much to do in their day ... from taking care of kids to getting the job done in the office to walking the dog (our practice leaves --none-- of that out. Although seated Zazen is indispensible and the -only- Zazen is seated Zazen ... rising from the cushion, all of life is 'Zazen' too when seen with a Buddha's eye! YES, ANOTHER KOAN!)

THUS, hand in hand with that "15 minutes of moments holding all time and space" ... one will ALSO be expected to undertake any number of JUNDO's PATENTED "INSTA-ZAZEN" © moments throughout each day ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/sit-a-long/with ... zazen.html

PLUS longer sittings about once a week or so, such as our weekly 90 minute and monthly 4 hour Zazenkais ...

viewforum.php?f=11

PLUS, if you can swing it, ideally, at least one (1) longer Retreat or 'Sesshin' of a few days or a week in length, sitting from before dawn to late at night ... each year.

Now, someone might ask too, "if each moment is all time and space, what is the purpose of an intensive Sesshin?" Well, I often say that, sometimes, we need to practice a bit long and hard, morning to night ... sitting and wrestling with 'me, my self and I' ... all to achieve nothing to attain! Going to Retreats, Sesshin and such is a powerful facet of this Practice and not to be missed.

This is also a good time to link again to the "litmus test" post on "WRONG AND RIGHT ZAZEN" ...

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2783

Gassho, Jundo

PS - Any impressions from the Sangha on this "15 minutes a day, PLUS Insta-Zazen etc." standard ... before Taigu and I make it the "official" recommendation around here?

[Risho]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

I like the 15 minute a day. I tend to set unrealistic goals for myself, which push me away from the practice. 15 minutes is great.

[Tb]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

Hi.

Yes, 15 min of "zazen time" a day is good, no need to over do it or make it to hefty.
Start where you are and work from there.

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Keishin]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

resisting doing something is just a detour, the long way 'round, an obstacle- and hindrance-filled ultra marathon/decathlon way of doing something
I guess it is a way I get to amuse myself, torture myself, worry myself with something I am going to do. Something I am going to do it when I do it.

Discipline - how to cultivate it?

Discipline is an interesting subject

how to cultivate it? (or cultivate anything for that matter) is an interesting question


There is a very fascinating book written by a Japanese farmer Masanobu Fukuoka called One Straw Revolution in which he set about cultivating his rice fields in such a way they tended themselves. The idea of this approach/method/understanding of farming came to him through his study of the Great Heart of Wisdom Sutra.

so back to discipline, which seems to be a way to take resistance and turn it into ease (an ease of some sort).
Resistance is to the doing? or to the doing of the doing?
Discipline--does it help with ease in the doing or in the doing of the doing?

There is a wisdom within me. I can't bully this around. I can't bribe it.
It reminds me of Tolkien's Gandalf and hobbits standing about the entrance to the dwarf mines of Moria All that effort, and the answer was right there, for all to see: speak friend and enter.
This wisdom is profoundly correct: it is not that I enter that is most important. It is the way in which I go about entering...

I think of discipline like this: as a way to enter, as a way to enter entering.

[anista]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

Oh, and I would like to add that I really don't see it as discipline anymore. Discipline, for me, is making me do things that I am reluctant to do. This is not the case for me now. Through our Bodhisattva vows, we declare that we will not rest until all sentient beings are free from suffering. In the light of this, it is important to relentlessly continue our practice, for the sake of others who cannot.

Our way is the karu??m?rga, the compassion-path. Seen this way, it is impossible to not want to practice. The extent of your practice though, is up to you.

May all beings be free from suffering.

[Ryumon]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

Many thanks for all the comments. I see many of my problems expressed in this thread, and I see that my problem is common. (Though perhaps some of you manage to deal with it better.)

As for Jundo's suggestion of 15 minutes, that seems short to me. In my case, if I sit for 20 minutes - western standard meditation time - I find that I get a few minutes of "timeless" time in that period. It often takes what seems like 5-10 minutes just for me to realize that the monkey mind is in control, then another few minutes for me to say, "Monkey mind, do what you want, I don't care." Granted, I'm not sitting regularly enough, and with more regularity, perhaps I would slip into timeless time more easily.

[Hoyu]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

At Green Gulch we would sit 40 minutes. I found it took me at least half that time to fully settle my mind. So it wasn't untill that last 20 or so that I really was absorbed into the practice. So for where I'm at in my practice longer seems better. I will assume for now(since I'm still a Zazen fledgling) that beginning duration of mental unrest will shorten as I progress. So perhaps a veteran sitter would get more out of even a 10 minute sit than a beginner?

Here is an interesting story I heard which relates to sitting time.

One day a student approached Suzuki Roshi(the founder of several Zen centers in California) and asked why they do 40 minute Zazen when other Zen centers(not under Suzuki) only do 30 minute sits? He wondered if they also could do 30 instead because 40 seemed too much.
Suzuki Roshi responded. "it's funny that you mention that as I have been recently concidering increasing it to 50."
To which the student quickly replied "40 minutes is great!"
and quickly took his leave.

Gassho,
John

[Nenka]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

Long story short, I've floated in and out of meditation over the past 25 years, first in the Tibetan tradition, then, on my own. When Treeleaf started, I was one of the earliest visitors, and Jundo motivated me to meditate more often, but, with time, work, and other problems, I drifted away. I come back every now and then - most often when I have problems, such as health problems I've been having recently - but I'd like to try and cultivate the discipline to keep meditating every day, for a long time.

I guess that some of us have monkey minds that are too strong, or can't commit to long-term practice. Maybe that's my case. But I'm wondering if there's something I can do to improve my discipline.

I wonder if this is a question of discipline, or a question of avoidance (and are the two separate?)

You say you've been floating in and out for 25 years. I would look at those times you floated out and try to determine what was going on then . . . because I don't think people just drift away from anything, they just passively make a decision to stop doing something. (And I say this as someone who has abandoned yoga, is afraid to write a novel because the first attempt failed, keeps gaining and losing the same ten pounds, sometimes stops driving a car for months or years at a time out of anxiety, etc. etc. etc. )

In other words, just what is it about zazen and you?

Gassho

Jen

[Hoyu]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

Jundo wrote:
Taigu and I are thinking of making a rule around here recommending 15 minutes of Zazen per day

I think this sounds great. I remember reading one of Jundo Sensei's posts from a wile back where he mentioned thinking about making participation in the Zazenkai mandatory. His point was that while being an online forum is fine we are after all a true Zendo, and as such, Sangha members should be participating in this as well. I wish i could find the link to where i heard this but i couldn't
Perhaps by Jundo and Taigu making things mandatory it will help those who are struggling(and we all struggle from time to time) to cultivate that discipline they are looking for?

Gassho,
John