Discipline - how to cultivate it?

[Ryumon]

Long story short, I've floated in and out of meditation over the past 25 years, first in the Tibetan tradition, then, on my own. When Treeleaf started, I was one of the earliest visitors, and Jundo motivated me to meditate more often, but, with time, work, and other problems, I drifted away. I come back every now and then - most often when I have problems, such as health problems I've been having recently - but I'd like to try and cultivate the discipline to keep meditating every day, for a long time.

I guess that some of us have monkey minds that are too strong, or can't commit to long-term practice. Maybe that's my case. But I'm wondering if there's something I can do to improve my discipline.

Yes, I can hear the answers coming: just sit. One day after the next. And if you say that, you're right. But it's not easy, as many of you know.

So, those who have tamed their discipline, how did you do it? And those who haven't, what do you do to try and tame it? And, to the bosses of Treeleaf, what suggestions do you have?

(One note: I live in a rural area, a few hours from a real sangha, so Treeleaf is my only sangha. If I did live in an area with a sangha, that would be more motivating to go daily or regularly. I have never, since I got interested in meditation, lived in such an area.)

Thanks to all!

[journeywriter]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

Yes, I can hear the answers coming: just sit. One day after the next. And if you say that, you're right. But it's not easy, as many of you know.

For me, I don't sit "one day after the next." I just sit. Today. Right now. And if I look back over a week or a month and realize that I managed to sit every day, that's great!

Then I sit. Today. Right now.

Now is all I have, and now is all that matters.

Gassho,

Stephen

[Risho]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

Do you have this problem with personal hygiene? I'm not being a smartass (ok I am), but this is a serious point.

I struggle with this as well, but it's usually because I have ideas in my mind of some ideal of discipline. If I fail to meet it, I disappoint myself. I think it helps to get rid of those ideals and wants of a rigid schedule. Sit when you have time. You make time to brush your teeth. Brushing and flossing your teeth are extremely important but we rarely think about those things and just do them naturally. Zazen should be no different. It's natural that it feels special sometimes, especially in the beginning because it is new. But we must just let it be, break out of that romance period, and integrate it into something as natural as taking a shower.

Gassho,

Risho

[natezenmaster]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

KirkMC,

Don't worry.. you're not alone. My monkeymind is rampant.. let me tell you. I have never had a zazen session where I didn't get distracted by a thought, hooked on a train or thoughts or in some measure bought into a storyline. The way I deal with that.. is that I give myself credit! Seriously.. I give myself credit for seeing the thoughts come and go and come and go.. and when I snap out of a story or hooked thought then I give myself credit. I smile, not only because of my monkey mind but because I can "see" it.

If you can't sit for health reasons then - as has been mentioned - anything and everything can be your practice. Be as open as possible to whatever you're doing now. Sit in a chair and observe... wash dishes and.. wash dishes. Easy to say, for me, hard to do, for me... but if I can smile at all the ways I avoid the present, get lost in story lines, dream away.. thought after thought.. then that is my practice. I've found it opens up paths. It makes 'me' more accessible to 'me' to the point I don't get so caught and hooked.. Perhaps I am not skilled at 'no thought' meditation but I am becoming skilled at 'watching thought' and in so doing giving up the idea of being skilled... if that makes sense.

Much metta to you! That is my best advice, as trite as it may sound...

_/_ Nate

[anista]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

Do you have this problem with personal hygiene? I'm not being a smartass (ok I am), but this is a serious point.

I struggle with this as well, but it's usually because I have ideas in my mind of some ideal of discipline. If I fail to meet it, I disappoint myself. I think it helps to get rid of those ideals and wants of a rigid schedule. Sit when you have time. You make time to brush your teeth. Brushing and flossing your teeth are extremely important but we rarely think about those things and just do them naturally. Zazen should be no different. It's natural that it feels special sometimes, especially in the beginning because it is new. But we must just let it be, break out of that romance period, and integrate it into something as natural as taking a shower.

Gassho,

Risho

The problem is, of course, that brushing the teeth (in my case) takes approximately 2 minutes. If I had to brush my teeth for 20+ minutes every day, I would find it hard to keep up as well. Just saying

@kirkmc: Anyway, I had the same problem, particularly that I just couldn't find the time to sit. Not that I am lazy, but with a wife and two kids, there just isn't time. Early in the morning before family wakes up? Can't set the alarm, because then I will wake the entire family. Then it's breakfast, etc. During the day? My job doesn't allow it (except now when I'm on parental leave). In the evening? Got to spend time with the kids. Later at night? Got to spend time with my wife.

My solution was shorter periods of zazen. I could easily do ten minutes before bed. Sometimes ten minutes right before work as well. I know it's not optimal, but it's better than nothing. Just to keep this up, until you again have the time or concentration or whatever to do it longer.

[Risho]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

Do you have this problem with personal hygiene? I'm not being a smartass (ok I am), but this is a serious point.

I struggle with this as well, but it's usually because I have ideas in my mind of some ideal of discipline. If I fail to meet it, I disappoint myself. I think it helps to get rid of those ideals and wants of a rigid schedule. Sit when you have time. You make time to brush your teeth. Brushing and flossing your teeth are extremely important but we rarely think about those things and just do them naturally. Zazen should be no different. It's natural that it feels special sometimes, especially in the beginning because it is new. But we must just let it be, break out of that romance period, and integrate it into something as natural as taking a shower.

Gassho,

Risho

The problem is, of course, that brushing the teeth (in my case) takes approximately 2 minutes. If I had to brush my teeth for 20+ minutes every day, I would find it hard to keep up as well. Just saying

hahahah, I knew I was being too idealistic :mrgreen:

[Ekai]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

Gaining discipline comes from pulling the energy and motivation within yourself to keep moving forward in your practice. Whenever you don't feel like meditating, try to remember the times on how good you felt after you meditated. If you are having trouble committing yourself to meditation everyday, start small like with just 10 minutes of meditation a day then gradually work towards adding more time. Taking small steps is much easier and keeps you from putting too much expectations on yourself and from getting discouraged. Gaining discipline is like building a muscle, the more you use it the stronger it gets. Also, the times that you don't want to meditate are actually probably the times that you need it the most.

Having perseverance in your practice teaches the value of staying on your path even in the face of obstacles, hinderances and adversity. You can take this learned perseverance and discipline into your daily life and apply to any situation. I have been in martial arts for over 10 years and one the most important things I learned in is the value of perseverance and discipline in martial arts and in meditation. You grow a little bit more each time you use the discipline within yourself to keep going no matter how small it may seem to be.

One very important note: you need to be relaxed and enjoy yourself in the process. Don't be rigid or try to "bear down" in the your practice. You don't want to be hard yourself and make sure you don't beat yourself up for not sitting in Zazen, we are all human. Gaining discipline more about "just being" and another way to see your true nature in this very moment which is a joyful and peaceful process.

I hope this helps.

Thanks,
Jodi

[edward]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

Gaining discipline comes from pulling the energy and motivation within yourself to keep moving forward in your practice. Whenever you don't feel like meditating, try to remember the times on how good you felt after you meditated.

Remembering how I felt after meditating is certainly not what keeps me motivated. I cannot say I feel good or different most of the times after sitting. But what then keeps me motivated you might ask. I have to think about the answer for a while. But I'm motivated thou. Maybe it's just the experience itself.

Gassho, Edward

[nadia_estm]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

Wow...if you do find an answer let me know...FAST I struggle and have always struggled with discipline, especially when talking about a long term commitment. So sitting zazen everyday for a month...fine...for a lifetime...not so fine....and I have no answer except that after extreme effort-burning myself out cycles repeated all of my life I try again, and again, and yet again, each time with a bit less competitive effort and a bit more compassion toward myself.

Your sister in the endless process of monkey-taming

[Ekai]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

nadia_estm wrote:
So sitting zazen everyday for a month...fine...for a lifetime...not so fine....and I have no answer except that after extreme effort-burning myself out cycles repeated all of my life I try again, and again, and yet again, each time with a bit less competitive effort and a bit more compassion toward myself.

Just take it day by day, moment by moment, breath by breath without being concerned about sitting Zazen for your lifetime. It is easier to have the effort in practice with energy, enthusiasm, mindfulness, compassion and joyfulness. Definitely having compassion and lovingkindess towards yourself is essential to your practice. Every moment we have in our life is an opportunity to practice, from spending quality time with our children especially when they are testing our boundaries to driving with mindfulness on the way home from work and to helping our neighbor mow their lawn when they are sick.

Thanks,
Jodi

[Jundo]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

Gaining discipline comes from pulling the energy and motivation within yourself to keep moving forward in your practice. Whenever you don't feel like meditating, try to remember the times on how good you felt after you meditated.

Just one note to say that, in this sitting wholely as what is, just as all is way of Shikantaza ...

... we do not sit to feel good after Zazen nor to move forward. Sunny days are sunny, rainy days are rainy. Piercing this is truly moving forward.

Sitting is the total manifestation of a Buddha's Smile that sweeps in both feeling good or not, smiles and tears, sometimes being "in the grove" and aches & pains, a Peace of One-Piece that holds both the peaceful and not.

Please have a look here at some of these ...

viewforum.php?f=23

Gassho, Jundo

[Shokai]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

Wow, what an opportunity to "Say it Again"; i.e. once more with feeling/Mo ichido kudasai

_/_ Arigato gozaimasu sensei
Yowza, I will now sit to enjoy the 'scenery of life' along the "ZZ" line :shock:

We don't do it to feel good, we do it because it's life (it's what we do); living moment by moment !!

[Saijun]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

Hello friends,

May I ask why ten minutes is better than two? Why twenty is better than ten? I understand the need for formal practice, and the importance of forming habits. However, is the difference between "good" zazen and "bad" zazen anything more substantial than what we want that particular sitting to be?

What happens when one stops trying to make things differently than they are?

Metta,

Saijun

[Risho]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

Hello friends,

May I ask why ten minutes is better than two? Why twenty is better than ten? I understand the need for formal practice, and the importance of forming habits. However, is the difference between "good" zazen and "bad" zazen anything more substantial than what we want that particular sitting to be?

What happens when one stops trying to make things differently than they are?

Metta,

Saijun

I just think the 2 minutes is too short. Zazen is combined with periods of getting lost in thought, then dropping those thoughts, getting lost in thought and coming back all over and over again. Maybe it's like REM sleep, you need to repeat that pattern for a specific period of time for it to be effective? 2 minutes definitely does not seem like it would be long enough... at least for me now.

[Saijun]

Re: Discipline - how to cultivate it?

Hello friends,

May I ask why ten minutes is better than two? Why twenty is better than ten? I understand the need for formal practice, and the importance of forming habits. However, is the difference between "good" zazen and "bad" zazen anything more substantial than what we want that particular sitting to be?

What happens when one stops trying to make things differently than they are?

Metta,

Saijun

I just think the 2 minutes is too short. Zazen is combined with periods of getting lost in thought, then dropping those thoughts, getting lost in thought and coming back all over and over again. Maybe it's like REM sleep, you need to repeat that pattern for a specific period of time for it to be effective? 2 minutes definitely does not seem like it would be long enough... at least for me now.

Hello Risho,

I understand your point, and agree with you to a certain extent. But if you put expectations and opinions in the practice, how can that not be a hindrance? If one has five minutes for sitting, sit for five minutes. If one has a week for sitting, sit for a week. Perhaps I have become somewhat misguided, but it seems to me that if one is sitting for sitting, time wouldn't matter.

If one judges sitting by time, or by calmness, or by any other condition, then is it really sitting?

Metta,

Saijun