Re: Brief essay on Buddhism.
I enjoyed your response (perhaps the most) Not only enlightening but it was some good logic that I had to hear. thank you so much.
Gassho, Jess
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Originally posted by Risho
I can understand some of your points but, to me, they are too idealistic.
First there are no needs. There are only wants. Do you want to live? Yes. So what is needed to live? It becomes a need only when we let our desires lead us by the nose. So I completely agree with you in terms of attachments. As human beings, we need to do more than just survive; we need to thrive. To me life is art.. it's not just here's my chart to live by.. I mean it's nice to enjoy it.
I mean I could get rid of all my stuff, and then what? I know there's a balance point. There's nothing wrong with entertainment in moderation. But again as human beings to thrive that may include a multitude of different things.
Perhaps not to get rid of it all, but choose not to obsesess over it either.
Some people like to drive nice cars or wear nice clothes. So what? Who said you can't enjoy life. Someone may enjoy a nice car, someone else may enjoy minimalism. But I do agree what is very problematic is exploitation of natural resources. Now, I include humans and animals when I say natural resources. And exploitation occurs when attachments get out of balance.
But it's too easy to the lay the blame on some group, e.g. "corporations". That turns it into us vs. them. You see? The current state of the world is your fault. And it's my fault, and it's everyone who is alive's fault, because we are part of it. We aren't separated from it.
Not the corporation it's self, but the actions of a corporation.
Personally, I can't take down corporations (like they did in the awesome movie "Fight Club"), but I can take care of myself. I have my own anger, greed, and ignorance to deal with before I can start pointing fingers.
the point is not to point fingers, but not to engage in the actions of..greed, arrogance and recklessness that come with the corporate life on planet starbux, perhaps for even the sake of one's own enlightenment.
Again, though, I feel you; I really do. I have an ideal that one day our society, if we don't kill each other first, would be somewhat like it is in Star Trek.. no poverty, no money needed. People have learned to turn away from being power/money hungry into exploration.
That is perhaps our own responsibility before it is that of the "superiors" of society.
But it does start with us, so again, I agree with your questions. We need to ask those. But again, don't separate yourself from others who you feel to be more materialistic because it is only in your mind that they are any different, any less than you. I know this because I do this too.
Again, not them, only their actions.
I wrote a comment on one of my Facebook friend's walls last night that spoke about exploitation. It also talks about this country's problems. When the left has power, the right demands justice in light of socialism. When the right is in power, the left calls them out on their vast right wing conspiracy. But this divisiveness has to end.
It seems as though we look to the left or the right when the 16 ton weight is coming from above us.
And it's inspiring to hear of others speak of a better way.
Politicians use our desires as the basis for their campaigns; they do it to get us emotionally invested in some cause.
Take President Obama, for example. He ran his campaign on the basis for change, on yes we can. Yes we can what? Yes we can have the same old same old? Politicians forgetting that they are servants of the populace flying their family around in military aircraft that we pay for? That's not all Obama's fault. That did not just happen with this current administration although certain Alaskans would want you to think that.
IMHO, no one who would take the job of leader is qualified to lead.
And you are right, there has been no change offered by political intervention, only change of how we phrase things.
Criticizing Obama is pretty silly considering politics involve a high level of compromise. So no matter how good one's intentions are, you may have to do certain things to push for something you believe in in the long run. Of course, his opponents will not speak to that. They will only point out his failures, and his side will blame everything on Bush. It's been done this way for a long, long time in this country.
The old proverbial square peg in a round hole mentality.
My point is that like politics, life isn't black and white. We are all in this. And until we start changing our attitudes the way you say from a perspective of exploitation to one of more compassion, we will see these problems. I mean, damn, and I agree with you again. I have a lot of stuff. How much stuff do I need? And how cheaply do I need it? You know there are people in China who get paid crap to work in factories without the standards required by the US government to produce the stuff we consume so readily. And yes, the corporations, and China's government are responsible for that. But guess what? So am I because I paid for stuff that was made by that system.
This, again IMHO of course is yet another example of the need to stop complying for the sake of others, not the self.
Sorry to get into politics, but it directly relates to this point of overconsumption. The US got rid of most of its manufacturing processes in the 80's/90's. We did that so global corporations could get things done more cheaply. The cost of producing is expensive (especially if done properly) because: 1. a person has to make a certain amount of money to have a standard of living that allows them to have shelter, clothes, food, and some other additonal things. 2. There is a large cost involved in insuring safety measures for workers, and 3. there is a large cost involved in maintaining equipment. That's only a couple of points.
consequentially,porduct quality dives employees assigned to manufacture are paid NOTHING,consumers pay more and finally those responsible for this tank in quality of life are rewarded for their destructive actions.
It's is a shame that Japan has experienced catastrophe on the level that they have, the world may have just lost one of our most fair, hard working and proud manufacturer in history.
We learned these lessons through the loss of life during the Industrial Revolution, but our desire led us astray. Our desire, not someone out there. Each one of us has this same inate desire to things that can get us into trouble.
So all of that was shelved when the goal shifted from quality and taking care of the each other to exploitation. Hey, those Chinese people may have to work 20 hours a day but, who cares, I can't see it from my backyard. And the current president did not address that. Why not?
I beleive this was spoken of in the words of the Buddha, look under delusion.
Is it because Obama is terrible because he's on the leftwing? Nope, it's because global trade is insane. In any case, I'm not an Obama supporter, but I'm not a divider either. When I look at problems I think it's a good idea to step in the shoes of the person who has to solve them. And that job is not easy.
trying to improve the world through politics is like trying to eat ice cream with chopsticks
And to get back to the point of exploitation, when a country like us uses one of their major points of leverage in the market (ie. that we can produce and export goods) things will shift in favor of the producer. If china or other 3rd world countries make all of the exports, they can charge us whatever they want because we no longer have the infrastructure or expertise to make it ourselves. The balance will shift.. It's just the nature of it all.
Anyway, I do understand where you are coming from. I think we need to embrace those ideas of compassion instead of consumption as well. But, like I said, it starts with each of us as individuals.
First there are no needs. There are only wants. Do you want to live? Yes. So what is needed to live? It becomes a need only when we let our desires lead us by the nose. So I completely agree with you in terms of attachments. As human beings, we need to do more than just survive; we need to thrive. To me life is art.. it's not just here's my chart to live by.. I mean it's nice to enjoy it.
I mean I could get rid of all my stuff, and then what? I know there's a balance point. There's nothing wrong with entertainment in moderation. But again as human beings to thrive that may include a multitude of different things.
Perhaps not to get rid of it all, but choose not to obsesess over it either.
Some people like to drive nice cars or wear nice clothes. So what? Who said you can't enjoy life. Someone may enjoy a nice car, someone else may enjoy minimalism. But I do agree what is very problematic is exploitation of natural resources. Now, I include humans and animals when I say natural resources. And exploitation occurs when attachments get out of balance.
But it's too easy to the lay the blame on some group, e.g. "corporations". That turns it into us vs. them. You see? The current state of the world is your fault. And it's my fault, and it's everyone who is alive's fault, because we are part of it. We aren't separated from it.
Not the corporation it's self, but the actions of a corporation.
Personally, I can't take down corporations (like they did in the awesome movie "Fight Club"), but I can take care of myself. I have my own anger, greed, and ignorance to deal with before I can start pointing fingers.
the point is not to point fingers, but not to engage in the actions of..greed, arrogance and recklessness that come with the corporate life on planet starbux, perhaps for even the sake of one's own enlightenment.
Again, though, I feel you; I really do. I have an ideal that one day our society, if we don't kill each other first, would be somewhat like it is in Star Trek.. no poverty, no money needed. People have learned to turn away from being power/money hungry into exploration.
That is perhaps our own responsibility before it is that of the "superiors" of society.
But it does start with us, so again, I agree with your questions. We need to ask those. But again, don't separate yourself from others who you feel to be more materialistic because it is only in your mind that they are any different, any less than you. I know this because I do this too.
Again, not them, only their actions.
I wrote a comment on one of my Facebook friend's walls last night that spoke about exploitation. It also talks about this country's problems. When the left has power, the right demands justice in light of socialism. When the right is in power, the left calls them out on their vast right wing conspiracy. But this divisiveness has to end.
It seems as though we look to the left or the right when the 16 ton weight is coming from above us.
And it's inspiring to hear of others speak of a better way.
Politicians use our desires as the basis for their campaigns; they do it to get us emotionally invested in some cause.
Take President Obama, for example. He ran his campaign on the basis for change, on yes we can. Yes we can what? Yes we can have the same old same old? Politicians forgetting that they are servants of the populace flying their family around in military aircraft that we pay for? That's not all Obama's fault. That did not just happen with this current administration although certain Alaskans would want you to think that.
IMHO, no one who would take the job of leader is qualified to lead.
And you are right, there has been no change offered by political intervention, only change of how we phrase things.
Criticizing Obama is pretty silly considering politics involve a high level of compromise. So no matter how good one's intentions are, you may have to do certain things to push for something you believe in in the long run. Of course, his opponents will not speak to that. They will only point out his failures, and his side will blame everything on Bush. It's been done this way for a long, long time in this country.
The old proverbial square peg in a round hole mentality.
My point is that like politics, life isn't black and white. We are all in this. And until we start changing our attitudes the way you say from a perspective of exploitation to one of more compassion, we will see these problems. I mean, damn, and I agree with you again. I have a lot of stuff. How much stuff do I need? And how cheaply do I need it? You know there are people in China who get paid crap to work in factories without the standards required by the US government to produce the stuff we consume so readily. And yes, the corporations, and China's government are responsible for that. But guess what? So am I because I paid for stuff that was made by that system.
This, again IMHO of course is yet another example of the need to stop complying for the sake of others, not the self.
Sorry to get into politics, but it directly relates to this point of overconsumption. The US got rid of most of its manufacturing processes in the 80's/90's. We did that so global corporations could get things done more cheaply. The cost of producing is expensive (especially if done properly) because: 1. a person has to make a certain amount of money to have a standard of living that allows them to have shelter, clothes, food, and some other additonal things. 2. There is a large cost involved in insuring safety measures for workers, and 3. there is a large cost involved in maintaining equipment. That's only a couple of points.
consequentially,porduct quality dives employees assigned to manufacture are paid NOTHING,consumers pay more and finally those responsible for this tank in quality of life are rewarded for their destructive actions.
It's is a shame that Japan has experienced catastrophe on the level that they have, the world may have just lost one of our most fair, hard working and proud manufacturer in history.
We learned these lessons through the loss of life during the Industrial Revolution, but our desire led us astray. Our desire, not someone out there. Each one of us has this same inate desire to things that can get us into trouble.
So all of that was shelved when the goal shifted from quality and taking care of the each other to exploitation. Hey, those Chinese people may have to work 20 hours a day but, who cares, I can't see it from my backyard. And the current president did not address that. Why not?
I beleive this was spoken of in the words of the Buddha, look under delusion.
Is it because Obama is terrible because he's on the leftwing? Nope, it's because global trade is insane. In any case, I'm not an Obama supporter, but I'm not a divider either. When I look at problems I think it's a good idea to step in the shoes of the person who has to solve them. And that job is not easy.
trying to improve the world through politics is like trying to eat ice cream with chopsticks
And to get back to the point of exploitation, when a country like us uses one of their major points of leverage in the market (ie. that we can produce and export goods) things will shift in favor of the producer. If china or other 3rd world countries make all of the exports, they can charge us whatever they want because we no longer have the infrastructure or expertise to make it ourselves. The balance will shift.. It's just the nature of it all.
Anyway, I do understand where you are coming from. I think we need to embrace those ideas of compassion instead of consumption as well. But, like I said, it starts with each of us as individuals.
I enjoyed your response (perhaps the most) Not only enlightening but it was some good logic that I had to hear. thank you so much.
Gassho, Jess
_/_
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