Zendo and Mosque

[Jinyu]

Re: Zendo and Mosque

I would begin the sitting with chanting the Heart Sutra. This chanting also lets others know what to do.

Seems like a good advice :roll:

Thank you for sharing Soen! And thanks to everyone for their comments... vast and complex subject.

The sweet song of Rumi, a song of love and total acceptance and surrender, still needs to be heard.
The path of the crazy wisdom derserves to be lived.
The dance of non-duality to be experienced.

Beautiful Taigu sensei, but sadly like Majushri's sword transcending illusions and attachments, the path of crazy wisdom is not easy to swallow for those confine in their certitudes...

I also work with childrens in schools and have to deal with religious intolerance, above all when I share a "Philosophy workshop" with them.
But here schools generally do not allow any religious manifestations, or in the catholic schools no proselytism is allowed... Secularism (I believe it is the same thing we call "Laicity" in French) is primordial, and with respect to every believer (and non-believer) it is widely accepted that school is a public space for knowledge. Any religious manifestations is seen as something private that must be kept in the family or community realm.
Some catholic schools have Chapels, and generally those places are used by everyone for any "spiritual practice" but outside Chapels, in the rest of the school "Religion is not allowed", except for Philosophy classes.

Different countries, different views, different intolerances...

Keep cultivating Patience with your students! And thank you for sharing Soen :wink:

gassho,
Jinyu

[Nindo]

Re: Zendo and Mosque

A very interesting discussion. I would also add chanting to your practice, and maybe the occasional zen shout! :P

Hi all,
We have a small room in the hospital here for prayer/meditaion. I've tried to use it for Zazen but faced a similar issue. The difference being this small room has a lock on the door and a sign you can slide to say open or in use. Even so the Muslim workers who come to pray when I'm in there knock repeatedly on the door. And Im only doing 10 minute sits!
One Muslim girl yelled at a Christian woman for using a room that was in her words "for Muslims". She was corrected by another employee that the room is for use by all. Another Cristian complained that they would throw out any bible that would be in the room. Yet they have a big trunk with prayed blankets and the like that nobody would throw out or get rid of out of fear.
Since they really believe that they get one step closer to going to he'll with every missed prayer and I don't believe this to be so for myself(I can do Zazen freely and at any time) I've given up using he room

This reminded me of the "prayer room" at Changi airport (Singapore), which I sought out in high hopes of a quiet hour or so, just to find it only catered to Muslims. Too bad this isn't working for you at the hospital.

[Keishin]

Re: Zendo and Mosque

Finally!

I have some time to say hellos to all posting here.

I appreciate this post a lot--in fact I think the situation described happens all the time, everywhere.

It is a beautiful koan, a great koan, and I have been enjoying it as it bounces the walls of my skull.

At one point a scene from Dr. Strangelove came to mind: "Gentlemen, No fighting in the War Room!"

as well as a riff on Monty Python's 'I came here for an argument' "No you didn't" "Yes I did." "No you didn't" "Yes I did" "That's not an argument, it's disputation." "No it isn't" "Yes it is"....etc.
Only it morphed into "I came to the quiet room to join in prayer" "Well, you can't quietly join us in quiet prayer" "Well why can't I quietly pray while you quietly pray?" "Because we are here first and we are meditating, not praying" "But the quiet is the same" "No it's not, 'cause you ....."

But what came to mind as well from the memory bin was a performance art event I read about and wanted so badly to have seen: inSite Binational art project regularly has artists from north and south the USA/Mexican border participate.
The piece I had read about and was intrigued about enlisted two American high school teams and two Mexican high school teams: one each playing basketball and soccer simultaneously on an indoor basketball court: the soccer net was under the basketball hoop. The 4 teams played twice--once in Mexico, and once in San Diego (US).
How fun would that be?
I would loved to have seen it.

And I tell you it happens all the time: the simultaneity, the interpenetration, the co-arising, multiple philosophies/one reality.

Life may be the only 'room' that can be 'booked' simultaneously by all participants....

Thank you all for this wonderful thread.

[Shokai]

Re: Zendo and Mosque

Keishin;

You brought to mind the Pequin on the tely bit; can you tell me if it was Monty Python's Circus or the Two Ronnies?

btw, Soen, How are you making out with the Muslims?

[Myozan Kodo]

Re: Zendo and Mosque

Hi Shokai,
No visitors today. But I did rephrase my poster on the door: "Zen Meditation ends at 1pm". It seemed to do the trick ... maybe! Today we had a very peaceful and undisturbed space to sit in. Nothing like real life at all, in fact.
Gassho,
Soen

[Hoyu]

Re: Zendo and Mosque

Keishin wrote:
Life may be the only 'room' that can be 'booked' simultaneously by all participants....

Wonderfully said Keishin!!

Gassho,
John

[ctpowers8]

Re: Zendo and Mosque

Soen, I may have some advice, my moms side of the family are all muslims and I talked with my cousin Abdullah and he said if you can talk to them and just explain to them that it is Haram (forbidden) to pray while others are using the room and shiekh Abdul Aziz of Saudi Arabia has written that you can pray in area (like a church) while it is not being used and there are no statues or pictures. If you pray while others are praying you commit an act of Shirk and Kufir (Disbelief). If you can tell them or post this up on the door I think that no other service be it meditation or church service will be interrupted. I don't know if this will help or not but it can't hurt. On another note are you from Dublin or another part of Ireland? My dad was born in Waterford and his side of my family are from Waterford and Cork county.
Gasho
Chris

[Yugen]

Re: Zendo and Mosque

Greetings all,
In my direct experience, a "nonbeliever" explaining that a certain behavior is "haram" or proscribed by secular and/or religious figures of authority may evoke the opposite response of what was intended . Please use this information judiciously, respectfully, and in context with the situation. Posting a notice or direct transmission of this information may be viewed as an escalation or direct challenge. I know the purpose of our discussion is to avoid making this a Zen/nonbeliever v. Islam issue over space. And as has been noted, the reactions of individuals vary - some have behaved very politely and respectfully when encountering your group. Perhaps one could approach one of these individuals and ask them for their perspective, and discuss the situation before determining whether proceeding any further is necessary. Such a discussion might initiate a dialogue with a larger group of users.

Gassho,
Yugen

[Shokai]

Re: Zendo and Mosque

I did rephrase my poster on the door: "Zen Meditation ends at 1pm". It seemed to do the trick ...

Ingenious, I just knew you'd find the skillful means

[Myozan Kodo]

Re: Zendo and Mosque

Hi Chris,
I appreciate that. If my visitors return, I may well follow your kind advice.

By the way, I'm from Galway but live in Dublin. Cork is a really beautiful part of Ireland. If you haven't visited the country, you should some day. I'll be happy to show you around Dublin.

Gassho,
Soen

[Tairin]

Very old discussion but so many useful teachings embedded here I thought I'd give it a bump so others saw it.

Religion is tricky. When I was younger I was much more combative about religion eager to debate the merits of religion period and the virtues of one vs the other. Had I been in this situation I would surely have taken an unskillful approach. I appreciate the themes of tolerance, understanding and sitting with what is that dominates the advice here.

Gassho
Warren
Sat today & LAH

[Joyo]

Very old discussion but so many useful teachings embedded here I thought I'd give it a bump so others saw it.

Religion is tricky. When I was younger I was much more combative about religion eager to debate the merits of religion period and the virtues of one vs the other. Had I been in this situation I would surely have taken an unskillful approach. I appreciate the themes of tolerance, understanding and sitting with what is that dominates the advice here.

Gassho
Warren
Sat today & LAH

I find it a challenge to be that tolerant and understanding. I live in a very religious small town. (you are Canadian so I'm sure you know what Saskatchewan is known for) It is in your face a lot, whether or not you want it to be. And if it's not the religious crowd, it's the New Age/Deepak Chopra crowd promising inner peace and a whole bunch of other stuff that come with a price tag.

I've taken the ostrich with it's head in the sand approach. Seems to work well enough, but part of my practice is learning to be tolerant towards it all.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

[Tom]

I live in the world's largest Muslim country, Indonesia. Religious intolerance, or rather, persecution, has been on the rise in recent years. Just last month a giant statue of a Chinese deity was shrouded on the demands of local Islamist groups. Sentiments came to a peak in April when the ethnic Chinese, Christian governor of Jakarta, Ahok was put on trial for blasphemy over allegedly misquoting the Koran (he had said in an election campaign Muslims were allowed to have a non-Muslim leader in public affairs.) It's been ugly.
I'm with Jundo on this one.My two cents worth is to just quietly sit. Let them be, send them Metta, and above all, don't get offended. The destruction of the Bamiyan statues in Afghanistan was more a tragedy for archaeologists than Buddhists. Sure, we'd prefer not to have ancient statues of our greatest teacher detonated into shards, but they can't destroy the Dharma. All that arises passes away. So let them pray.
But..., do draw a line if they start violating civil rights. No removal of religious icons, no shoving of meditators, and basics of civil decorum, please. After all, we booked the space first. There is no sharia in Dublin. Ireland is a majority Catholic country, with its own challenges of tolerance. (Parts of my family emigrated because of the troubles.) Tolerance has been hard fought and forgiveness is an ongoing project in the old country. We Buddhists can set an example, so for what it's worth, I'd vote to just sit.
Gassho,
Tom
SAT/LAH

[nordeen28]

Being a Muslim who practices Zen, I recommend that you consider changing the time you sit. Noon prayers are essential for Muslims and on Friday it is a duty no one can miss at noon. If you continue to practice at the same time from my perspective that is even more beautiful. It does not only show tolerance but also may create room for interfaith conversations. Peace.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Being a Muslim who practices Zen, I recommend that you consider changing the time you sit. Noon prayers are essential for Muslims and on Friday it is a duty no one can miss at noon. If you continue to practice at the same time from my perspective that is even more beautiful. It does not only show tolerance but also may create room for interfaith conversations. Peace.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi Nordeen,

We sit at a certain time in Japan which is not noon, although it may be noon somewhere in the world. What is noon in Virginia is not so in California or France.

Because many of our sittings are recorded, and we having sitting groups meeting at different times, you are welcome to join any other time convenient to you.

Salam.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH