Study Buddism?

[edward]

I would like to ask this question:
Is it necessarily to do any further study in Buddhism if one practices Zazen? Al insights should arise naturally out of the sitting practice. To give a simple example, should one read in a book or hear in talk that all things are impermanent if that is not your own insight yet, it will merely be a concept. And when one gets this insight out of practice it is not necessary to hear that from others.
I put it very simple here, but I hope you know what I mean.

[Seiryu]

Re: Study Buddism?

Just because something is a concept doesn’t make it good or bad or even problematic. Concepts only become problematic when we attach to them as being fundamentally real. This is the same when studying Buddhism. I think there is an immense richness in studying Buddhism across the traditions, for both the historical and the intellectual reasons as long as you keep in the mind that what you read in books or hear from teachers are not the truth, but merely pointers and guidepost pointing you in the right direction.

You can sit in zazen by yourself and eventually realize all the realizations you can, just like you can walk from (where I am) NY to Florida using no maps or help at all. It will be difficult and long, and you might just give up. But by studying maps and asking for directions, the way to get there will get easier. It is not that the map, or the people you ask for directions that bring you there, they are just pointing you in the right direction. Same with our practice. The teachers do not bring us to realization, they just point to the way.

Remember avoid all extremes. Not wanting to study Buddhism to avoid getting useless concepts is just the ego talking about how it wants to sit and not put any work into it. Only reading and studying without practice is bad as well, since you can learn from books all about how to swim, but none of that matters unless you jump into a pool and get wet.

So to answer in a more straight forward way; when it is time to sit zazen, sit zazen. When it is time to study, study. Do not judge it as good, bad, helpful, or unhelpful, just completely engage yourself with whatever you are doing. In that way, anything you do will be zazen.

Just some ideas….

I wish you all the best

Gassho

Seiryu

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Study Buddism?

I can't help but echo the above post. Reading from a book will help you to hear things and see things from the perspective of others, and that shift in perspective can often link up with your current understanding of the way to help you along the path of realization. However, in my opinion, teachers and shikantaza are also necessary. Just as necessary as study. In study we learn the words and views of the ancients, and we adapt them to our age so that we may better understand their wisdom. But Zen is life itself, and without a teacher to help guide you on the Path, reading books is just reading dead words, there is no 'life' to it. Not to mention some concepts are complex at first, and teachers are necessary to ensure that you do not travel down the wrong path. In our tradition, it is quite easy to find oneself has reverted to nihilism instead of savoring the nature of life. The role of the teacher is to help you find your footing along the path. Shikantaza is the experience of that. It is the posture in which Shakyamuni realized enlightenment, and it is the calming of karma and action that allows the whirlwind of modern life to settle. It is the personification of our way.

Not to mention, if study was not important, would so many Buddhist priests write books? Even Gudo Wafu Nishijima, our teacher's teacher, has written many books. All things in balance, do not attach yourself to your dharma texts, but don't burn them either until you no longer need their guidance.

[edward]

Re: Study Buddism?

@Seiryu

Your comparison of walking from NY to Florida without any help does not match with Zazen, because as I understood it there is no goal in Zazen. But you say the teachers point us the way to realization, so that is a goal. Could you explain what realization is and why someone would want to have that.

What do you mean with putting work in sitting in relation to study Buddhism? If one follows the instructions properly what further work or study does one have to put in it?

Don't get me wrong. I studied a lot of Buddhism but still have no idea what realization really means. Of course you would say because I never had that experience. But then again even on a dictionary level its hocus spocus to me.

Maybe I'm a bit antagonizing but I really ask myself these questions and would like to go deeper in them.

Gassho,

Edward

[Taigu]

Re: Study Buddism?

Hi Edward.

Having an idea about realization is certainly not realization.
Nobody needs that kind of idea, in many instances the idea or despair about having none are the very obstacles to unfolding Buddha nature.
Sutras, koans, stories, poems, texts are beautiful flowers growing on the menure of practice. They can also be seen as menure coming out of disgested practice. Dogen would go one step furher and would invite you to eat the painted cake and show you that the teaching is the real thing too.
A teacher of shikantaza will always invite people to study and read but not in a scholar sense, not as a university professor. The game is not about getting information, stringing facts and notions, making potions to quench the thirst of knowing. Reading in our tradition is to enter the I don't know , to be red rather than reading...
I invite you to watch this clumsy vid on the subject of reading:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0FKQR21jiw[/video]]

Going deeper is a nice way to put it. Going deeper in the question? In you? In the world? in going up? down? through? in not going anywhere? Not being anybody? with a pack of bicuits? Driving a car of having a nap?

Take great care

gassho


Taigu

[Seiryu]

Re: Study Buddism?

Your comparison of walking from NY to Florida without any help does not match with Zazen, because as I understood it there is no goal in Zazen. But you say the teachers point us the way to realization, so that is a goal. Could you explain what realization is and why someone would want to have that.

These are really good questions and I like that you are asking them! But I never said that realization is a goal. Nor do I think it is a goal. For me realization is just returning back to your essence, and allowing yourself to be, just as you are without being plagued with worry about the future or hung up on what happened in the past.

.What do you mean with putting work in sitting in relation to study Buddhism? If one follows the instructions properly what further work or study does one have to put in it?

If the goal was to be become enlightened and then live off the rest of our lives meditating in some cave, then what extra work is needed? Is this your practice?

Don't get me wrong. I studied a lot of Buddhism but still have no idea what realization really means. Of course you would say because I never had that experience. But then again even on a dictionary level its hocus spocus to me.

We can never understand what realization means, we can only experience it. But searching for the answer in the understanding is never gonna get you anywhere, because when engaged in the understanding we miss the only place where we can actualized realization. In the here and now. If we are always trying to figure it out in our heads, we miss what is right in front of us. At some point we have to stop trying to figure it all out and just let it all be. Then maybe…

I asked myself similar questions as well....it is good to want to go deeper...but also question who is it that wants to go deeper? Answer: I have no clue

Thank you for your questions

Gassho

Seiryu

[Tb]

Re: Study Buddism?

Hi.

Reading about Buddhism is like reading about parenting.
Reading about diaperchange, late nights worrying about the lateness of the teenager being out, the heartfelt laughter, the "aha"-moments is not the same as really experiencing them.
And although i say that they are not the same they are both part of the studying, its good to get some background to it, but it's not the same as doing it.
Or is it?

Disclaimer: Although i have done both, i am an expert in neither, even though some might try and pin me to that title...

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Hans]

Re: Study Buddism?

Hello,

just another two cents from a novice in training.

Keep in mind that we humans all have our individual histories and character traits that will influence how much we are inclined to gravitate towards scriptural study (for better or for worse). One person's hell is another person's heaven. It is an interesting fact, that the Zen tradition, which often claims to not rely on scriptures, has managed to "generate" more scriptures than a whole lot of other Buddhist schools put together. It is also a fact that one life is not enough to read and digest it all. Even if one wanted to, it'd be impossible to study all there is, which is why IMHO it is good to find a teacher who might keep one's over-intellectualism or intellectual laziness in balance.

There is also the question of whether one wants to practice for oneself only, or if one feels called to teach others as well. If one doesn't do any research at all, one might be tempted to simply perpetuate some myths (like a pure lineage that entitles the lineage holders to behave any way they want to)....however reading some of Stuart Lachs's articles can prove very "enlightening" to those who were simply fed the folklore version of unbroken lineages and unfallible authoritiy.

Most Zen masters of the past only "burned" their sutras after having mastered them to my knowledge. Although they are not without inconsistencies, a non-attached study of some key texts can open the door to appreciate the great commonalities between most mainstream Mahayana paths. Why would Dogen have included a sutra hall in his temple designs, if it was all completely unneccessary?

"Theory without practice is empty. Practice without theory is blind." someone said once. Nevertheless, since we live in an age of information overload, I'd also suggest to take Taigu's approach of "inspirational study" with a strong focus on daily Zazen practice.

Gassho,

Hans

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Study Buddism?

@Seiryu

Your comparison of walking from NY to Florida without any help does not match with Zazen, because as I understood it there is no goal in Zazen. But you say the teachers point us the way to realization, so that is a goal. Could you explain what realization is and why someone would want to have that.

What do you mean with putting work in sitting in relation to study Buddhism? If one follows the instructions properly what further work or study does one have to put in it?

Don't get me wrong. I studied a lot of Buddhism but still have no idea what realization really means. Of course you would say because I never had that experience. But then again even on a dictionary level its hocus spocus to me.

Maybe I'm a bit antagonizing but I really ask myself these questions and would like to go deeper in them.

Gassho,

Edward

I will attempt to answer this as best as I can, from my limited perspective and under the limitation of poor words.

In Zen we often have what seems to be duality - for example a "goaless goal" and it only begins to make sense when you start to let go of the scholar in you and instead of reading or hearing the teachings, you experience the teachings and the teachings experience you. As for what realization is, I can't really help you with defining it. I don't know that I've had any realization, and if I have, I don't know whether I could explain it in words, and if I could, I don't know that I could do it in a way that would properly relate it to you. We say there is no goal in zazen, because we all possess Buddha nature already, everything we need we already have, so what is there left to be a goal? However, it is because of our attachments and our delusions that we aren't able to testify to that fact, and so in order to help clear them away and return to our Buddha Nature, we sit zazen-which is a goal. A goaless goal. As for work and study, this path is a path to freedom and liberation, but no one said it would be a walk in the park! We all have years of being taught that life and reality are one way, a way that reinforces our delusions and attachments, and we are trying to, for lack of a better word, "re-program" ourselves. It's like smoking. A non-smoker can look at a smoker trying to quit and say, "It should be easy, just don't buy cigaretts and don't smoke any." But the smoker deals with the addiction. It is hard for a smoker to quit because they are attached to it in many ways, much like we are with our concepts of self and our delusions.
We practice to achieve liberation, and the practice is liberation itself, so we sit to achieve a goal that we've already achieved - a goaless goal.

[Jundo]

Re: Study Buddism?

@Seiryu

Your comparison of walking from NY to Florida without any help does not match with Zazen, because as I understood it there is no goal in Zazen. But you say the teachers point us the way to realization, so that is a goal.

Hi Edward,

I will just add some more words and letters to the many wise words by others in this thread. You may know:

"A special transmission beyond Scriptures,
Not depending on words or letters,
But pointing directly to the Mind,
Seeing into one's true Nature,
And realizing one's own Enlightenment."

This teaching attributed to Master Bodhidharma has an interesting history. Though there were some radicals in interpreting its meaning who truly abandoned all learning, most of the great masters were great Buddhist scholars too (like Dogen, who often strikes me as a walking encyclopedia of Buddhist texts) ... and the fellows who burned their books were usually seasoned teachers who had already read them all! What is vital is that we learn from the words ... but do not take this as an intellectual pursuit and get -caught- by the words. Something like the difference between reading a book about 'swimming' and jumping in the pool oneself! Feel the cool water on our own skin. )

Please listen to this talk, a bit more on the subject (part of a series of talks on the Eightfold Path) ...

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2939

Zazen without understanding the teachings of the Buddha and Ancestors is like formless clay. Study is necessary to properly mold the vessel being made. Yet, we see in/as/behind/through/with and without the words and letters, so it is called a teaching "beyond words and letters".

Also, you say that Zazen is "goalless" and there is no place to get to! You are through and through correct! However, that does not mean that Zazen has no goal, and that we get nowhere! :shock:

Please sit with these two talks, and the rest of our "beginner's" series (we're all, always beginners) on that point ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/sit-a-long/with ... art-v.html

http://www.treeleaf.org/sit-a-long/with ... t-vii.html

Gassho, Jundo

PS - THE FOLLOWING IS ADDED JUST FOR THE HISTORY BUFFS IN THE CROWD ...

One of the best research papers on the famous saying A special transmission outside the scriptures .... is Albert Welter's

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/His ... ission.htm

In a nutshell:

Individually, the four slogans are found in works dating before the Sung, but they do not appear together as a four part series of expressions until well into the period when they are attributed to Bodhidharma in the Tsu-t'ing shih-yüan (Collection from the Garden of the Patriarchs) in 1108. Even then, their acceptance was not without controversy. Mu-an, the compiler of the Collection from the Garden of the Patriarchs, remarked contemptuously: "Many people mistake the meaning of 'do not establish words and letters.' They speak frequently of abandoning the scriptures and regard silent sitting as Ch'an. They are truly the dumb sheep of our school." In reality, three of the slogans- "do not establish words and letters"; "directly point to the human mind"; "see one's nature and become a Buddha"- were well established as normative Ch'an teaching by the beginning of the Sung. The status of the fourth slogan, "a special transmission outside the scriptures," as an interpretation of the true meaning of "do not establish words and letters" (pu li wen-tzu, literally "no establish words-letters") was the subject of continued controversy.
...

The history of Ch'an and Zen is generally presented as denying Buddhist rationalism in favor of a mysticism that in principle transcends every context, including even the Buddhist one. The "orthodox" Ch'an position maintains that the phrase "do not establish words and letters" is consistent with "a special transmission outside the scriptures," treating the two slogans as a pair. In this interpretation, both phrases are said to point to the common principle that true enlightenment, as experienced by the Buddha and transmitted through the patriarchs, is independent of verbal explanations, including the record of the Buddha's teachings (i.e., scriptures) and later doctrinal elaborations. This interpretation was not acknowledged in Wu-yüeh Ch'an, which distinguished the phrase "do not establish words and letters" from the principle of an independent transmission apart from the scriptures, and treated the two as opposing ideas. Wu-yüeh Ch'an acknowledged the validity of Bodhidharma's warning against attachment to scriptures and doctrines, but did not accept that this warning amounted to a categorical denial. As Ch'an became established in the Sung, monks and officials rose to challenge the Wu-yüeh interpretation, and insist on an independent tradition apart from the scriptures.
...

[Ekai]

Re: Study Buddism?

Studying and reading about Buddhism from various sources can enrich and deepen your spiritual life as long as you practice what you have read. It is compared to taking your meditation practice and expanding it with you in every part of your life, not just on the meditation cushion. I think studying Buddhism and the actual practice in your daily life support each other. Whether you read a book, listen to podcasts or attend a Dharma talk with a live teacher, it very helpful to receive knowledge that will help you on your path to guide you in the right direction.

Jodi

[edward]

Re: Study Buddism?

A teacher of shikantaza will always invite people to study and read but not in a scholar sense, not as a university professor. The game is not about getting information, stringing facts and notions, making potions to quench the thirst of knowing. Reading in our tradition is to enter the I don't know , to be red rather than reading...

Taigu

That makes sense to me.

Going deeper is a nice way to put it. Going deeper in the question? In you? In the world? in going up? down? through? in not going anywhere? Not being anybody? with a pack of bicuits? Driving a car of having a nap?

Taigu

Is this meant cynically? Or do I just not understand the meaning?

Anyway lots to read for me here in this tread, thank you all!

[Amelia]

Re: Study Buddism?

Studying and reading about Buddhism from various sources can enrich and deepen your spiritual life as long as you practice what you have read.

Or not practice what you have read. There is also learning in finding out what is not right for you.

Whether you read a book, listen to podcasts or attend a Dharma talk with a live teacher, it very helpful to receive knowledge that will help you on your path to guide you in the right direction.

What is the "right" direction?

[Ekai]

Re: Study Buddism?

What is the "right" direction?

Simply just being present with your experience right here and now while letting go of all thoughts of whether it is the right direction or not. Being awake to the innate wisdom and compassion that lies within each of us and treating ourselves and others with these virtues.

You may feel in your heart whether a teaching is right for you or not. Or feel a deep connection to you as if it is really speaking to you. Some teachings/readings will work better for you that it will for others and some teachings will work for you at certain stages of your life. A portion of it is trial and error, so in order to find out if a teaching or what you are reading is right for you, just try it and enjoy the process without any expectations or concerns whether it is right or not.

Does that make sense?

Jodi

[Heisoku]

Re: Study Buddism?

"A special transmission beyond Scriptures,
Not depending on words or letters,
But pointing directly to the Mind,
Seeing into one's true Nature,
And realizing one's own Enlightenment."

I have always liked this quote. But if you are new to a subject particularly one like your own ind, let alone the MInd! Then you need teachings and in particular teachers to prevent your mind clouding the Mind.
Places like Treeleaf allow us to explore mind, the Mind and realization, by the challenges and alternative perspectives we may have on these subjects.
As Chris said;

We all have years of being taught that life and reality are one way, a way that reinforces our delusions and attachments, and we are trying to, for lack of a better word, "re-program" ourselves.

However we need the teachings to help us re- and de-conceptualise our encultured conscious experience and we need zazen to practice and test our understanding and experience of this being.
I love the way this happens for me. .. kind of slow unfolding....'fragrant learning' is a description I heard Jundo call it somewhere.

Buddhist study for me is the study of this constant being and what it is, not what I think it is or thought it was or what I think it might be.
I don't know if that makes any sense?